Shame

[Cruise Director]

I've been watching with a great sickness in my stomach all of the pictures surfacing of Iraqi prisoners being tortured. While laying naked in a pile may not seem like torture to you and I, it is wholely against the religeous beliefs of these Iraqis and a form of torture. ( Kind of like putting salt on your skin is fairly harmless but put it on the skin of a slug and it's torture.) It makes me quite ashamed of some of our troops that we would commit such acts against anyone; regardless of why they are held captive.

One picture really caught my attention. It is of a female soldier standing next to a pile of naked Iraqi men. She's standing there with the biggest frin on her face that it would seem she just got off a ride at Disney Land. I can't help but wonder what is going through her mind? What gratification could she be getting from these acts? Does she not see the similarity between the actions of the person we removed from power in the country to her own? Apparently not. What she has now is a glossy 3 x 5 that she can keep in her wallet when she gets home to show her friends what she did in the war. And what's worse is that her friends will probably get a kick out of it.

Now this is only half of the shame from where I see it. President Bush has been all over the tube and in the papers apologizing for these bastards. I think he's going a little overboard in trying to let the World know that these people will be punished for their actions. Do we expect an apology every time we see some country acting in the wrong? No. We need to get the president off the tube and take care of the problem in the trenches. Find these creatons. Punish them accordingly. Move on. The World, I hope, has enough sense to realize that the actions of these few do not represent the nation as a whole and drawing more attention to it through apologies is not going to aid the situation.

[Billyman]

I’m with ya Cruise.

If you haven’t already, go pick up the May ’04 issue of Playboy. There’s an article in there called Death and Dishonor. Although the article is about the murder of an American soldier by other American soldiers, it’s very insightful on the mentality of some of the soldiers in Iraq. Some of the soldiers, battalions and company’s are totally out of control. Despite what Bush says, he’s loving the fact that it is so (in a weird twisted sorta way).

The article is a good read and feel free to look at the other pages as well. There’s lots of good stuff in there. :D

[Escape Artist]

Heh. There's a certain Arab-run site out there that posted a lot more pictures than our networks may ever allow.

It no longer exists, kids. You get a nice .htaccess prompt for username/pass, and that's all she wrote.

Kinda fucked up. It apparently had been around for a while.

Naked piles? Try rape, beating...you should see the Iraqi woman forced to blow some pathetic fuck, the shame, torment, suicidal/homicidal desire on her face - frankly, I'd shoot every goddamned soldier that did it, and most of who supported it indirectly.

[Pianomahnn]

Originally posted by Cruise Director
Do we expect an apology every time we see some country acting in the wrong? No. We need to get the president off the tube and take care of the problem in the trenches.

I suppose you don't listen to the cries of the liberal voting populace and those in office. They want apologies, resignations, etc. And they happen to be a lot of people right now. Not to mention PC this and PC that. . .not apologizing would just be so. . .*gasp*. . .horrible.

Oh well. . .nothing says America better than partisan politics and whiney little bitches.

[Escape Artist]

Y'know, if you really sit down and think about the implications - the post above was a damned good one.

Kudos. :)

Remember, kids...when you have the internet at your disposal, accepting CNN's version of things maybe ain't the brightest idea.

[Cruise Director]

An apology would be nice. I just don't think it needs to come from the President. Get that soldier that's grinning in all of those pictures to stand up and do the apologizing. Let her and the other gorillas explain why, exactly, this seemed like a good idea at the time.

I guess we'll have to see what kind of disciplinary process comes about. That might alleviate some of the issue.

[Pianomahnn]

Adults apologizing is humerous, in a sad way.

As a child, the foundation of right and wrong is not yet established, and an apology is an acceptable form is saying "I realize now I was wrong, and why I am wrong, forgive me." However, the same cannot be true of an adult.

These people know right from wrong. They willingly abused these prisoners, and seemed to enjoy it. An apology from them would be worthless; a joke. The only reason they would be apologizing is from an attempt to save face or because "it's the right thing do." But is it really?

How often do we see on the TV or in the newspaper a responsible adult apologizing for a poorly decided upon act? But these people know what they're doing is wrong. Somehow this act of apologizing is supposed to make everything better? I don't think so. Society needs to stop demanding these "apologies" from people in the wrong. It's a immitation brand bandaid on a shotgun wound.

[Mudflap]

Originally posted by SimpleSimon (at the Asylum)
Yes, I expected this from the US troops. War is inherently dehumanizing. The constant stress and danger of occupation duty in a hostile land fosters a greatly enhanced us vs them mentality. The surprise is not that it happens - it is that it happens so little.

As for what is not being filmed or published, I would wager almost anything you can imagine, and many things you cannot. It's just as well that none of those boys have professional training.

I thought that was worth quoting here. I agree 100%.

Now, I'm not defending the actions of the guilty American soldiers, but I would like to point out some things that are probably going on but not being reported in the context of the Iraqis being abused by the American soldiers.

1. Most of the prisoners are guilty of killing or trying to kill American soldiers. They hate Americans and wish nothing but death and pain for Americans. Their captors, Americans, are well aware of this. Hell, the prisoners probably advertise their true feelings in the most vulgar ways possible.

2. As prisoners, they probably aren't so meek and mild. I'd bet good money that they are rebellious, insolent, disruptive, and insulting towards their captors. Flinging whatever they can get their hands on towards the guards, spitting and pissing at/on them, and generally being uncooperative in any way imaginable.

I don't KNOW that any of these things are happening, but I do believe its a sure bet.

This kind of behavior will garner a reaction. The Americans working in the prison are only human. Hate breeds hate and animosity is returned in kind.

Its no excuse. But I understand.

[Mudflap]

Originally posted by Escape Artist
Heh. There's a certain Arab-run site out there that posted a lot more pictures than our networks may ever allow.

It no longer exists, kids. You get a nice .htaccess prompt for username/pass, and that's all she wrote.

Kinda fucked up. It apparently had been around for a while.

Naked piles? Try rape, beating...you should see the Iraqi woman forced to blow some pathetic fuck, the shame, torment, suicidal/homicidal desire on her face - frankly, I'd shoot every goddamned soldier that did it, and most of who supported it indirectly.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38335

Turn on your pop up blocker.

[TotalAnarchy]

Its just that most of the world doesnt know why the U.S. is in Iraq any more.

WMD's? Havent heard squat about any of that for months. Kinda like Osama in Afghanistan. Cant find it, lets not talk about it.

Security for the Iraqi people? The violence is getting worse, not better. If its the result of a few dissidents, they must be pretty hardcore ex-special forces or something, because they seem to be blowing up a lot of stuff. And people keep on dying.

Liberty for the Iraqi's? Well, that has improved, but those pictures in the prisons far from help. If you wanted something more damaging to the propoganda effort, you would have had to have got pictures of soldiers shooting babies or something. Its not cool, and it goes against the ethos of a liberating force. Its an occupation force, until the new hopefully secular pro west government can be installed al la Afghanistan, backed up by foriegn trained Iraqi forces and mercenaries.

[Uberwonder]

Originally posted by Escape Artist

Naked piles? Try rape, beating...you should see the Iraqi woman forced to blow some pathetic fuck, the shame, torment, suicidal/homicidal desire on her face - frankly, I'd shoot every goddamned soldier that did it, and most of who supported it indirectly.

I saw the pics, they are faked.
If you find them again, take a closer look.
Start by noting the color of the uniforms.

[Billyman]

http://www.stickdeath.com/frameset.htm

Scroll down to the "carrot patch".

[Barbie]

Originally posted by Uberwonder
I saw the pics, they are faked.
If you find them again, take a closer look.
Start by noting the color of the uniforms.

They are fake?

Including the one with the woman and her huge SMILE? standing around a pile of naked men...

disgusting.

Canadians are no better. They went to Somalia (??) and did shitty shit too.

[Cruise Director]

(CBS/AP) Army Pfc. Lynndie England, seen worldwide in photographs that show her smiling and pointing at naked Iraqi prisoners, said she was ordered to pose for the photos, and felt "kind of weird" in doing so.

In an exclusive interview with Brian Maass of Denver CBS station KCNC-TV, England also confirmed that abuses worse than those depicted in the photos were carried out at the U.S.-run Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad, but she declined to discuss them.

England, 21, repeatedly insisted that her actions were dictated by "persons in my higher chain of command."

In the photos, England is seen smiling, cigarette in her mouth, as she leans forward and points at the genitals of a naked, hooded Iraqis. Another photo taken at Abu Ghraib shows her holding a leash that encircles the neck of a naked Iraqi man lying on his side.

"I was instructed by persons in higher rank to stand there and hold this leash and look at the camera," she said.

England said the actions depicted in the photos were intended to put psychological pressure on the Iraqi prisoners.

"Well, I mean, they [the photos] were for psy-op reasons," she said "And the reasons worked. I mean, so to us, we were doing our job, which meant we were doing what we were told, and the outcome was what they wanted. They'd come back and they'd look at the pictures, and they'd state, 'Oh, that's a good tactic, keep it up. That's working. This is working. Keep doing it. It's getting what we need.'"

England, an Army reservist from West Virginia who is four months pregnant, is now stationed at Fort Bragg in North Carolina. The interview was taped Tuesday at Fort Bragg.

England is among seven soldiers from the 372nd Military Police Company who face charges for allegedly degrading and humiliating Iraqi prisoners. One soldier, Spc. Jeremy C. Sivits of Hyndman, Pa., will face a court-martial in Baghdad next week.

"To all of us who have been charged, we all agree that we don't feel like we were doing things that we weren't supposed to, because we were told to do them. We think everything was justified, because we were instructed to do this and to do that," England said.

She told KCNC she was looking forward to having her baby and hopefully one day putting the abuse scandal behind her.

There is a lot of "they" and "we" in that article. She really is taking zero responsibilty for her actions. She says she was told by her command to do these things. She says she was uncomfortable. Does that smile look uncomfortable?

Whether guilty or not, I have a feeling this chick is going to be a huge skapegoat.

[Cruise Director]

And the plot thikens:

May 13, 2004 -- WASHINGTON - Shocking shots of sexcapades involving Pfc. Lynndie England were among the hundreds of X-rated photos and videos from the Abu Ghraib prison scandal shown to lawmakers in a top-secret Capitol conference room yesterday.
"She was having sex with numerous partners. It appeared to be consensual," said a lawmaker who saw the photos.

And, videos showed the disgraced soldier - made notorious in a photo showing her holding a leash looped around an Iraqi prisoner's neck - engaged in graphic sex acts with other soldiers in front of Iraqi prisoners, Pentagon officials told NBC Nightly News.

"Almost everybody was naked all the time," another lawmaker said.

Many members of Congress left the 45-minute viewing session early, thereby missing the porno performance by England, but there were enough other images of torture, humiliation and intimidation to sicken anyone.

"It was pretty disgusting, not what you'd expect from Americans," said Sen. Norm Coleman (R-Minn.). "There was lots of sexual stuff - not of the Iraqis, but of our troops."

Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.), who also characterized the photos as "disgusting," agreed, noting, "It's hard to believe that this actually is taking place in a military facility."



The shocking photos and videos, provided on computer disks by Pentagon officials, showed attack dogs snarling at cowering prisoners, Iraqi women forced to expose their breasts, and naked prisoners tied together on the floor, senators revealed as they emerged from the heavily guarded conference room.

"It was significantly worse than I had anticipated," said Sen. Ron Wyden (D-Ore). "Take the worst case and multiply it over several times."

"I don't know how these people got into our Army," said Sen. Ben Nighthorse Campbell (R-Colo.), who reported seeing "several pictures of Iraqi women who were disrobed or putting their shirts up."

Sen. Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.) described the images as "more detailed and more graphic than the pictures that have been released publicly," referring to the disturbing photos of Iraqis being abused at Abu Ghraib prison that surfaced two weeks ago, and which Islamic terrorists claim led to this week's revenge beheading of American Nick Berg.

"Normally, I side with disclosure and openness, but in this case, these photos are evidence," Schumer said, indicating that he favors keeping the lid on the alarming pictures, as Vice President Dick Cheney and Sen. John Warner (R-Va.) have urged.

Rep. Jane Harman (Calif.), ranking Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, said she was most appalled by a video of a handcuffed prisoner beating his head against a wall in an apparent bid to knock himself unconscious to escape abuse.

In another video clip, she said, a group of men were shown masturbating.

Before the pictures of England's sex romps were shown to Congress, the 21-year-old reservist from West Virginia tried to portray herself as a reluctant participant who was just following orders.

"I didn't really, I mean, want to be in any pictures," England told a Denver TV station.

"I was instructed by persons in higher rank to 'stand there, hold this leash, look at the camera,' and they took picture for PsyOps [psychological operations]," she told KCNC-TV.

England acknowledged "it was kind of weird" when she was photographed smiling, with a cigarette in her mouth, as she leaned forward and pointed at the genitals of a naked, hooded Iraqi at Abu Ghraib prison.

England has refused to identify who gave her the orders, saying only that they came from "persons in my chain of command."

England faces a military court-martial that includes charges such as conspiracy to maltreat prisoners and assault consummated by battery.

She could face punishment ranging from a reprimand to more than 15 years in prison.

Now they're going to paint her as a slut. Must be easier to get the conviction if she is of "loose morals."

[Mudflap]

How are they going to paint her as a slut? Seems to me she made one out of herself. She needs to own what she has done and stop blaming her chain of command.

[ms. bing]

"now, private england, i want you to blow private jones, smith, and peterson for the camera. keep in mind, however, that by doing this you will be serving your country. you'll be a hero, private england."
"well, ok. as long as it's for my country."

sounds plausible to me.