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View Full Version : X-Posted: Legality vs. Justification: Vietnam and the War in Iraq


zim
04-15-2004, 05:50 AM
     There has been much debate as to whether or not the war in Iraq is justified. It is time to step beyond partisan politics and preconceived notions as to the intentions of the Bush administration and analyze the law itself, and determine based on that, and the stated reasons for war, whether or not the war and its resulting occupation are not only justified, but legal.
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Oddly enough, regardless of any leftist rhetoric about a ‘quagmire,’ to properly understand the law that deals with these types of military actions, one must look back to Vietnam and the process by which Lyndon Baines Johnson escalated the conflict in Vietnam and Americanized it into the Vietnam War.
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;In 1964, the North Vietnamese Army allegedly attacked the USS Maddox off the coast of Vietnam. The validity of this claim and the reality of the attack have been called into question for years. After the ‘incident’ which may, or may not have actually occurred, Congress passed a Joint Resolution known as the Tonkin Gulf Resolution. It stated, “[t]hat the Congress approves and supports the determination of the President, as Commander in Chief, to take all necessary measures to repel any armed attack against the forces of the United States and to prevent further aggression.” The Resolution went on to conclude, “[t]his resolution shall expire when the President shall determine that the peace and security of the area is reasonably assured by international conditions created by action of the United Nations or otherwise, except that it may be terminated earlier by concurrent resolution of the Congress.”
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;The resulting war was fought in a highly secretive manner. Johnson was known to approve troop deployments in the hundreds of thousands while only reporting to the American people that a mere fraction of that number had actually been deployed.
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;As the facts of the situation came to the forefront, the Congress, in part to prevent a repeat, passed The War Powers Act in 1973. The Act stated that the President must in every possible instance consult with Congress before introducing US forces into hostile situations. It went on to state, “in the absence of a declaration of war, in any case in which United States Armed Forces are introduced into hostilities or … into the territory … of a foreign nation, while equipped for combat … The President shall provide such other information as the Congress may request in the fulfillment of its constitutional responsibilities with respect to committing the Nation to war and the use of United States Armed Forces abroad.”
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Furthermore, it states, “Within sixty calendar days after a report is submitted … the President shall terminate any use of United States Armed Forces with respect to which such report was submitted, unless the Congress has declared war or has enacted a specific authorization for such use of the United States Armed Forces.”
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Such a specific authorization was made for the use of United States Armed Forces in Iraq. On October 10, 2002 the Congress passed the Joint Resolution Authorizing Use of Force Against Iraq. It was highly specific as to what constituted reason for force.
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;The use of force in Iraq was authorized under a specific set of conditions. Force may be used to “defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq.” It has since been shown that there was no threat posed by the disarmed Iraq.
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Force may be used to “enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq.” The disarmed Iraq did allow, under the threat of military force, the United Nations to disarm the state. Whether or not Iraq properly permitted the UNSC to verify the disarmament is questionable.
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Force may also be used “to take the necessary actions against international terrorist and terrorist organizations including those nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized, committed or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001.” There was no link.
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;And so there you have it: the only three acceptable reasons to go to war. 1) to protect the US, 2) to enforce UNSC resolutions, and 3) due to a connection between Iraq and terrorism.
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;In recent inquiries, President Bush has explained that we went to war with Iraq because Saddam was a “bad man,” who “used chemical weapons on his own people,” and because he “attacked Kuwait” in the early 1990s. If these are truly the reasons that America went to war, then doing so was a direct violation of the War Powers Act because the White House was not authorized to use military force for those reasons.

MAC
04-15-2004, 06:37 PM
“Within sixty calendar days after a report is submitted … the President shall terminate any use of United States Armed Forces with respect to which such report was submitted, unless the Congress has declared war or has enacted a specific authorization for such use of the United States Armed Forces.”

well, why don't we just wait our 60 days and let congress decide......

oh......my bad........they decided already didn't they?

zim
04-16-2004, 02:03 AM
MAC, yes, the congress enacted a SPECIFIC authorization for the use of the US armed forces, however, the executive is claiming that the reason we're going to war is one thing, while the authorization only permits the use of armed forces for a different reason.

MAC
04-16-2004, 05:09 AM
1 president
535 congressmen/women
9 supreme court justices

290,000,000 US citizens
3000 dead on 9/11

500,000 US soldiers
800,000 US reservists

14,000 in afghanistan
100 dead

137,000 in Iraq
675 dead

just some facts and figures from the cia world fact book and various news articles

congress signed off on this and they allow it to continue.
why?

they mimic our voting patterns.

TotalAnarchy
04-23-2004, 12:13 PM
look.

Its not vietnam. There is no proper foreign backed opposition with proper supply lines. There is no borders or lines of conflict.

No. Its Beiruit.

Think about it. A number of groups involved.

Trigger points. Civilians armed.

Shifting boundries. Outbreaks of guerilla warfare. Terrorism and suicide attacks.

Ambushes, infighting among the Iraqi's, etc.

Common grounds for uniting, yet grounds for division among the native population of Iraqi's and the occupying forces.

Welcome to Beiruit. On a country scale. Eventually the world will leave it to its own destruction, or reap the anger and vengence of people who had no freedom but now they have nothing at all. Just because you put a tick in a box doesnt mean anything changes. Look at Africa.

Its a quagmire, and the paranoia of America over the Vietnam comparisoms will keep it from realising its true nature until it is too late, and the daggers are not just drawn, they are plunged.

Whether it be another truck bomb attack, or whatever. It will happen. Maybe not in Iraq, but it will happen. Look at Morocco, at Spain, at Algeria. Saudi Arabia most recently. Plans in Australia and Britain.

Just pray that we dont become involved in a worldwide Beiruit.

MAC
04-23-2004, 02:32 PM
I got your quagmire

If the United States of America had a radical violent faction of INDIVIDUALS willing to attack and die to preserve their misguided mainstream-divergant philosophies what would Joe & Jane America do?
[/not unlike anyone who doesn't go to your church]

I think the answer is:
They would expect their gov't FOR the people, SEPERATE FROM the people, to stop them.....by taking away their inalienable rights without taking away TOO MANY of Joe& Jane America's
[/dangerous trade off]

Gentlemen, there is only one enemy to a society that allows freedom of beliefs, and that's the individual whose beliefs tell him that no one should be able to believe differently than he.
[/but technically he's free to do so]

The constitutional democracy is a guerrila war of rights with freedom attached, like a bayonet, to the end of each individual's rifle.

No one ever wins and MANKIND cannot accept that.