About Damn Time!!!

[MrsKol]

This is Good Friday. It is a holiday for me and for the kids. So as any self-respecting adult would do, I slept in, then watched Good Morning America. I watch Sabrina, the skateboarding dog doing her stuff. Then came the interesting stuff... The Archbishop of Boston has warned, any politician that sees themselves as a practicing Catholic but doesn't uphold the laws protecting human life, should not present themselves for Communion.

I have heard this before a couple of weeks ago, then heard this, this morning, and did a little search on the web and this was the first thing that came up:

http://www.time.com/time/election2004/article/0,18471,605436,00.html

Something I have never understood is how a practicing Catholic
could consider themselves to be a Democrat. When John Kennedy was running for president the issues of abortion, gay "marriages", stem cell research, etc, were not issues of the platform. However, since Roe v Wade, the issues are becoming more complicated and now it seems, if you are a Democrat then you support abortion, gay "marriage", etc. Now I know this is a generalization, in that not every single Democrat supports this, however it does seem to be the majority do support these issues.
Supporting any law that does not uphold the sanctity of human life is an ongoing grave sin. Therefore, if you support these issues, consider yourself a practicing Catholic, then aren't you contradicting yourself? How are you to be credible to the American people? Doesn't it seem like you are "speaking with forked tongue"?
I think the Church is correct in issuing this edict. The statement of separation of Church and State do not hold water as an argument for this, because, separation of Church and State refers to, the State (government) will not sanction a religion (Church of England, for example).

http://www.jeremiahproject.com/ch_state.html

So observe your religion, observe the laws of the land, however as a person of moral conviction, if you want to practice politics, then be sure the two are compatible.

[ms. bing]

i'm a practicing catholic. i think abortion is horrible and murder. i also think, however, that the last thing we need is another LAW telling us what we can and cannot do. so while i would do my damndest to convince someone who came to me not to get an abortion, i will defend any movement to keep it legal. think of the repercussions if we don't. first we outlaw abortion, then smoking (it kills people, too.) then what?
maybe i should convert to Lutheran.

[MrsKol]

That's just it. Abortion is murder. Murder is against the LAW. That is what laws are for.
The first thing that happens in conception is the cardiac muscle is formed. This occurs during the division process, when cells are mutated so they are able to do the job they are suppose to do. Since the Cardiac is the only one of its type, it is the first thing that you can actually see working. If something has a heart beat, is it alive? I am not talking about artificial means. Now before you vegans start up, I am speaking of human life here. If you stop that heart from beating, have you committed murder?
BTW, most Christian denominations do not support abortion.
Anyway the point of the thread, is not so much the abortion issue, but whether you agree or disagree on the Catholic Church edict of Catholic politicians who do not uphold Catholic doctrines, such as the sanctity of human life, whether they should be refused Communion.
I think they should be refused.

[Koliedrus]

Republican Protestants, for instance, aren't affected by this decision. In essence, the Catholic Church is telling Kerry that he can go to Hell. A statement akin to that regarding the fiasco in the middle east might find both parties thinking about pitchforks and asbestos.

[jules]

Since when are sinners not still considered Catholics?

I'd also like to see how the death penalty and war fit into this "upholding the sanctity of life" deal. Apparently only the lives we want to be sacred are so.

a life is a life is a life is a life....

[Pianomahnn]

Originally posted by jules
Since when are sinners not still considered Catholics?

I'd also like to see how the death penalty and war fit into this "upholding the sanctity of life" deal. Apparently only the lives we want to be sacred are so.

a life is a life is a life is a life....

I'm fairly certain this Archbishop was directing it at Bush as well.

The problem with the bible is the contradiction portions. "Thou shat not kill." (Okay. . .commandment, is that in the bible?) And "An eye for an eye." Confusion Supreme!!!

I say, "Fuck it!" Most of the people on this planet are not good people these days. I contemplate moving to the arctic circle daily. Live my life with ice and stuff. Ice is nice.

[MrsKol]

"Since when are sinners not still considered Catholics?

I'd also like to see how the death penalty and war fit into this "upholding the sanctity of life" deal. Apparently only the lives we want to be sacred are so."
- Jules

*************************************************


I'm not sure I understand the first statement. Catholics are sinners too. You should have seen the line at Confesson last night! And Catholics have never said that we don't sin. So I'm not sure what you are trying to say with that

However, the Catholic Church is against the death penalty. For example, the Turk that tried to assassinate John Paul II, was up for the death penalty in Turkey. The Pope, after nearly dying from the attempt, recovering and visiting the would be assassin, asked the Turkish government to commute his death sentence. It has also happened many times in the US, the Pope asking for prisioners on death row, for the death sentenc to be commuted.
As far as war is concerned, the Catholic Church realizes that sometimes wars happen, no matter how hard you try to avoid them. There is certain criteria for a "just war". And these are just guidelines

2309 The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:
- the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
- all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
- there must be serious prospects of success;
- the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.
These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the "just war" doctrine.
The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.

The Fifth Commandment
http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/fifth.html

Again, if the politican in question is a practicing, observant Catholic, as John Kerry says he is, then he would not support laws that defend and contribute to the death penalty. And in times of war, everything must be done to avoid war.

Bush is not Catholic, I believe he is Baptist. His brother Jed, the governor of Florida is Catholic. He was received into the Church in 1999 or 2000. So the Archbishop's statement would have no effect on Bush. But I tell ya, Bush honors more of the Catholic doctrines that John Kerry does!!! (In my opinion)

I have always to go to Manitoba and play with the Polar bears myself.

[Pianomahnn]

Originally posted by MrsKol
But I tell ya, Bush honors more of the Catholic doctrines that John Kerry does!!! (In my opinion)

What about this whole "war" thing?

[Cruise Director]

Originally posted by MrsKol

Something I have never understood is how a practicing Catholic
could consider themselves to be a Democrat. When John Kennedy was running for president the issues of abortion, gay "marriages", stem cell research, etc, were not issues of the platform. However, since Roe v Wade, the issues are becoming more complicated and now it seems, if you are a Democrat then you support abortion, gay "marriage", etc. Now I know this is a generalization, in that not every single Democrat supports this, however it does seem to be the majority do support these issues.
Supporting any law that does not uphold the sanctity of human life is an ongoing grave sin. Therefore, if you support these issues, consider yourself a practicing Catholic, then aren't you contradicting yourself? How are you to be credible to the American people? Doesn't it seem like you are "speaking with forked tongue"?


First of all, it's nice to see you around. I have been wondering if Kol had been surfing without parental supervision and am relieved to see you still have your eyes on him. Now, on to the issues.

I would never attempt to argue abortion. One, I am a man and since child birth is out of the question for me I don't think it's my place to argue. But, I do take issue with the statements of same sex marriage and stem cell research "not upholding the sanctity of human life." No one loses a life when to men or two women decided to promise themselves to each other. In fact, I'd bet there is reasearch somewhere that links prolonged life with hapiness and these marriages may make people happy. As for stem cell research, unless I am completely uninformed, the cell tissue is taken from non living fetuses. We are simply capitalizing on the unfortunate loss of life to possibly improve or prolong the lives of others. I don't see how anything like that could possible be wrong in the eyes of a God.

[Billyman]

Originally posted by Pianomahnn
What about this whole "war" thing?

It’s an exemption from the practice. An amendment if you will.

Catholics can find circumstances where “killing may be necessary” in cases of war but can’t find those exemptions anywhere else.

*shrugs*

Just sounds like more religious bullshit to me.

[Mudflap]

Originally posted by Cruise Director

I would never attempt to argue abortion. One, I am a man and since child birth is out of the question for me I don't think it's my place to argue.

Oh, puh-leeze! :fag2:

Why the hell should men disqualify themselves from having a firm opinion on such an important social issue as abortion? You may not feel its your place to argue, perhaps out of some perverted reverence for a woman's ability to gestate, but speak for yourself. You can analyze the role of men in regards to sociology, biology, anthropology, and even cosmotology if that makes ya feel better, draw whatever conclusions you like about men being mainly sperm donors, but don't tell me that I can't speak out (for or against abortion) because I'm a man.

Way off topic, but I wanted to say it.

/me flips Cruise the bird and spells out "Mudflap is The Game" on his front lawn with Pramitol

Catholicism: A perfect example of the failings of organized religon.

If it weren't for all the whacko muslims rabble rousing in the name of Allah Ackbar every day, the Catholic Church would still be getting a lot of bad press.

Easter is all about eggs, bunnies, and candy. Amen.

[MuffyTheVampyreLayer]

Well said Mudflap.

Cruise - I totally agree with you re: Gay marriage, I can't really see how that is a sanctity of life issue (unless of course someone mistakenly thinks that the purpose of marriage is to procreate), as for the stem cell research, that all comes back to how you define "life".

How do the catholics define life? Could someone please clarify.

If a fetus is threatening the life of the mother and abortion is refused and the mother dies, is that murder?

As for the refusal of communion - if you're going to belong to a club, you are expected to play by the rules. However, the club leaders shouldn't whine when their membership dwindles because nobody likes the rules.

[Torque]

Women get the right to decide if they are having their own babies because they will carry them. Men get to decide if they are willing to sign up and be a father. If a man is not ready to commit to spending the rest of his life being responsible for a child and playing an active part in raising a child, he really doesn't have much right to make a decision.

I personally find the idea of abortion very distasteful, but I'll defend the right of people to have very early abortions if thats what they decide.

I wouldnt go so far as to call an early abortion murder. But, my moral code tells me that killing folks is sometimes entirely justified, and the right thing to do in some cases. I can't think of anything that a baby or a child could do that might kick them onto that list though. I've held enough babies to wonder why someone wouldnt want to keep one, or at least give someone else the joy of holding them.

[MrsKol]

I suppose I misspoke about gay "marriage" and the sanctity of life. That is just one issue the Catholic Church is against, however John Kerry does support it.

My personal feelings about gay unions is this. Anyone in this world that finds someone to love and that loves them and want to spend the rest of the lives together, I say go for it. When loving relationships occurr, there is USUALLY some sort of stablility in the community and society as a whole. The problem I have are two things: 1. Marriage is a sacrament given to us from God, for ONE reason is procreation. The union between two homosexuals is not one of procreation. 2. The act of homosexuality is a sin. Not being homasexual, but the act. By condoning unions between homosexuals it is encouraging the act.
So yes, I have some wrestling inside of myself regarding this issue. The homosexuals that I have known in my live, they have been my best friends, my drinking buddies. my study buddies. and I love them as my friends. Do I want them to be happy? You bet! If they found someone to spend the rest of their lives with, I want them to have it, but by doing that, am I condoning the homosexual act and possibly enocouraging them to lose grace with God? God is who decides on who receives grace, so yes my head and heart is on a rollercoaster of sorts. It is not as black and white as it seems.

____________________________________________________

What about this whole "war" thing? -Pmahn

____________________________________________________

It’s an exemption from the practice. An amendment if you will.

Catholics can find circumstances where “killing may be necessary” in cases of war but can’t find those exemptions anywhere else.
- Billyman
____________________________________________________


No, it is not an exception.
Yes, there is a just war criteria that is in the Catechism. The link is provided above.

Muffy, you made my point, thank you. If you want to belong to the club, you need to follow the rules.
Membership to the club is not dwindling. Oh, yes some people leave, many return. Last night in the Knoxville diocese, 352 people joined the Catholic church. In the United States, it is estimated that this Easter, 15,000, people will enter the Catholic Church. My sister, who head the RCIA in Federal Way, Washington, told me there were 20 entering her Church. Two (a couple in their 50's) came in early because both have cancer. She has breast cancer and he has a rare form of bone cancer and given about 3-6 months to live. They have made it their top priority to convert to Catholicism before they die.

The rules of the Catholic Church are not made wily-nily and can be changed on a whim. The rules were set up by Christ and therefore are not subject to change. Things that have been declared dogmas in the past, have been done so, due to sacred tradition over the past 2000 years.

The definition of life in the Catechism is conception. Once conception has occurred, there is life. The decision to have an abortion therefore is murder. It took me a long time to get that. Until about 4 years ago, I strongly believed in Pro-Choice. It was the last thing I had resolve within myself before I was recieved into the Church. When you are baptised and recieved into the Church, one of the questions asked is "Do you believe in the what the Catholic Church teaches and holds to be true?" When I say "I do" I wanted to mean it. It took me 25 years of wrestling back and forth, reading, studing and praying, before it was resolved in myself. And I do believe abortion is murder.

[MrsKol]

CD- thanks. No, Kol and I are never too far away from each other.

[ms. bing]

i believe abortion is murder. i just dont think it needs to be illegal. the fact that there has been this much question about it leads me to believe there is enough difference in belief to warrant the option being out there. besides, if people spent half as much energy on really improving the standards of society and the education of the young people as they do getting laws made, we wouldn't need the damn law in the first place. picture a society like this:
"abortion? why would i do that? its so much easier for me to have my baby and give it up for adoption. i met the couple and they are wonderful. my baby's going to be so happy."
or better yet, how bout:
"of course i havent had sex yet! are you crazy? im only 18 for pete's sake! don't you know could happen if i had sex before i was with a commited partner with whom i have mutual respect, trust and understanding? you must be from another planet!"
i pray for the above scenarios, not for the illegalization of abortion. call it making the bigger point.

[Cruise Director]

Originally posted by Mudflap
Oh, puh-leeze! :fag2:

Why the hell should men disqualify themselves from having a firm opinion on such an important social issue as abortion? You may not feel its your place to argue, perhaps out of some perverted reverence for a woman's ability to gestate, but speak for yourself. You can analyze the role of men in regards to sociology, biology, anthropology, and even cosmotology if that makes ya feel better, draw whatever conclusions you like about men being mainly sperm donors, but don't tell me that I can't speak out (for or against abortion) because I'm a man.

Way off topic, but I wanted to say it.

/me flips Cruise the bird and spells out "Mudflap is The Game" on his front lawn with Pramitol



The Game? I'm going to start calling you "candyland."

And, for the record, I do have a strong opinion about abortion. Very strong. I just choose to remove myself from debates on that issue because it's a pointless argument. Abortion is one of those issues that you already know what you believe and nobody is going to change your mind.

Now go back to the couch and put Val back on the computer. She's more fun to talk to anyway. :P

[Billyman]

Originally posted by Cruise Director


And, for the record, I do have a strong opinion about abortion. Very strong. I just choose to remove myself from debates on that issue because it's a pointless argument. Abortion is one of those issues that you already know what you believe and nobody is going to change your mind.


:stupid:

[Mudflap]

Had to call you out, pal. This forum has been sucking lately.

I believe and respect that you have an opinion on abortion, but I won't agree with keeping silent on the issue due to the inability to carry and deliver a baby. Under those criteria, shouldn't barren women keep silent also? Maybe postmenopausal women too.

Nor will I agree to keeping silent because it is as you said, "a pointless arguement." In the form of civil debates, arguements are made to exchange ideas and beliefs and to obtain perspective and information from others that believe differently than you. What is to be gained by staying out of it? I believe that I have a right to speak up on the issue. I do not believe my beliefs nor anyone elses should be forced upon anyone.

If you call me "candyland", I swear to Isis, I'll key yer truck.

Billyman: OMG! homoghey!

[Billyman]

With all due respect sir,

I think, in large, this topic has bean beaten’ to death and that’s the true reason for staying the hell out of it.

Dunno about everyone else but I do get sick and tired of repeating myself. ;)

[Koliedrus]

Originally posted by MrsKol
CD- thanks. No, Kol and I are never too far away from each other.

We do have a tendancy to debate thoughts, however. Sometimes we investigate what the other knows. As a result, we add to our total knowledge base.

Ok, we bitch at each other, too.

Get to know ANYONONE and you'll find that they disagree with you about SOMETHING.

EEEEEEK!!!!

Fucking Individuality again!!!

Bush is a Methodist (http://opengov.media.mit.edu/EX/0000/000/060/043/).

Hey! I was curious!

G'head.

[MrsKol]

Ok, enough about abortion. I did not start this thread to talk about abortion. Like Billyman said, it has been beaten to death.
I started the thread because I wanted to know how people felt about the Archbishop's statement re: politicians who see themselves as practicing Catholics but supporting non-Catholic issues.

[Billyman]

As this being a religious sparked curiosity question from the beginning, I’ve haven’t voiced any opinions since I really don’t care. I mean no disrespect mind you but I truthfully don’t care who’s what and what they support despite their denomination or otherwise. I’ve never seen any person with religion or even one without that didn’t contradict themselves or their beliefs in some form or fashion.

I think the key word in the Archbishop's statement is ‘politician’.

[ms. bing]

im not a politician, and i guess that's good. i will have no problem standing up for communion. my conscience is clear, and that's all that matters.
ok, i may have some impure thoughts to answer for, but that's really all. ;)