Nice day to be destroyed.

[boats]

I can't ask for advice without explaining the situation. I hope that you can somewhat put yourself in my shoes, and think about the angles I have because it's not so cut-&-dry.

The situation is this...

I recently moved to be closer to my girlfriend and my best friend. I've been extremely happy with everything the last month being near her, and the past 8 months dating her--but on Saturday I found out some troubling news.

It seems when I first visited this girl up at her school with my buddy, it was well known to my friend that I liked her, and he also knew that she liked me. I was not obvious with my intentions because I figured she thought of me as a friend. Late that night they fooled around. Not fully sex, but...you can imagine what she did to him.

I acted harshly with my friend and called him and told him to stay clear of me, and that i can't function around him anymore. He feels extremely guilty (although I have no sympathy for him).

Mostly, i'm not angry at the act as much as them both hiding it from me for nearly 9 months. I feel like the butt of a joke. The way I see it they're both guilty of two things...

1) the act
2) not telling me

The first I can understand, we all do stupid things and alcohol was involved.

However, they both watched me invest everything I had into this relationship. They both watched me fly to hawaii to see her, they watched me move away from my family and other friends. If they had told me in the beginning I would have been annoyed, and I wouldn't have got myself this deep into the relationship, but I would also still have my friend.

At least he didn't tell me about it for reasons of wanting to see me happy--she didn't tell me so she could get what she wanted (me).

This happened Saturday. Sunday was brutal (I sat on my kitchen floor for 3 hours bawling my eyes out. Not finest moment), and now I'm trying to decide how I handle this.

One option seems logical...

Make up with my buddy. Girls come and go, but friends (ones like this) usually last a life time, or a long time at least, and we've been friends for 6 years. Explain to him that we need to learn a valuable lesson about life with this situation, and explain to him that the cost of the lesson was my girlfriend. That seems like punishment enough, and God knows I wont forget it either.

Am I being too harsh? I just dont think I can live with the fact that my girlfriend could mess with two guys, who are best friends, two weekends in a row. It's just not anyone *I* know and love.

I have never felt so personally betrayed Hypertribe. Tell me what I can do.


-- boats

[Venus]

Well it seems pretty obvious that you've made up your mind that you can't be with this girl because of something she did before you started dating, so I'll just skip on to how to deal with the friend.

Now, I understand that you're hurt, and you have every right to be. How important is this friendship to you? Would you constantly be wondering if you could trust him to meet a girl you're interested in? Would that parinoia be worth the friendship? These are just a couple of the questions you need to answer for yourself before you make your decision.

[boats]

but...but...she liked me at that time. how could she do that with him, and then kiss me the very next weekend. doesn't sound like the girl i know. my perception of her has changed. :(

[Venus]

I totally understand that boats. And that's what happens with this kind of thing. Are you more hurt that it happened, or that they didn't tell you? How much alcohal was involved? Are you willing to forgive that?

[SimpleSimon]

...It seems when I first visited this girl up at her school with my buddy, it was well known to my friend that I liked her, and he also knew that she liked me. I was not obvious with my intentions because I figured she thought of me as a friend. Late that night they fooled around. Not fully sex, but...you can imagine what she did to him....

While it is not clear from the context what time frame is involved here, it seems apparent that at the time of this incident two things were true:

You had neither made a personal committment to the young lady, nor had she made one to you; and

you had not made your feelings with regard to her clear to your friend.

Given that the above is true, from the rest of your post it sounds as if you feel betrayed, but there is no betrayal here. Just as men, women often feel strong attractions to more than one person at the same time.

The question you need to ask is two-fold:

Has she made a committment to you comparable to your committment to her?

Do you love her?


Love cannot be expected to, nor should it be expected to, forgive all things. It is, however, unreasonable to expect fidelity in the absence of committment.

I would suggest the following:

To clarify the situation for yourself, draw up a time line of major events in the history of your relationship with her. If the "betrayal" falls before committment, then there was no betrayal. It nevertheless will need to be talked out between you and her, and between you and your friend.

Relationships are like everything in life, they require work to perfect, and in the learning process mistakes occur. A mistake is no reason to abandon the effort.

[Uberwonder]

Blow it off.
Here's what I see.
You found a girl you liked. Your friend and her got drunk and wound up playing around a bit, ONE time.
You had not really formalized any sort of a relationship with her at that time.
Meanwhile, you HAVE formalized a relationship, you both like each other a lot, your friend has remained a friend and has not had anything further to do with her (other than just being friends to both of you).
Neither told you of this ONE time event moreso not to hurt you than anything else I would imagine.


OK, now you know.
So here's the deal. She is not "damaged goods" now. The fact that she partied once PRIOR to your getting involved with her is not a mortal sin. The fact that she did this partying with your friend is hardly more than a bad call on her part.

Now... Your friend. Keep in mind that your friend is still your friend. He did not "steal your love", he got drunk and had an opportunity to have a little fun with a girl that apparently he also found attractive and although you had probably told him you liked her, you do state that you were NOT obvious with your intentions.

I understand you being upset but also understand that what is hurt the most here is your pride.
You need to get over this quickly unless you think that your pride is more important than any relationship you may ever have. (Trust me, pride can be a cancer when misapplied, as it is in this case)
The girl was not your "property" you stated as much.
You had not made it clear to your friend that you had intentions.
They partied, one night, big deal.
He is obviously sorry it happened as is she I would imagine.
To think that this has been a standing joke between them is your hurt pride twisting your imagination up. I would imagine that it is more a matter of something that they would both rather forget.
What you need to do is forgive the both of them and forget it. Nothing happened that has caused her to be less of a girlfreind than she has been these last months and nothing happened that has caused him to be less of a friend.
The loss of either is not worth the price of your "hurt feelings.
Shit they just had a few drinks and fooled around a bit. Big deal.
Were you a virgin when you met her? Was she?

[boats]

im more hurt that they didn't tell me. alcohol was likely 90% responsible (it's never fully the excuse). Im not sure that i can live with it though. I guess that's the question. Do you see any options I haven't thought about?

[boats]

Originally posted by Uberwonder
You had not really formalized any sort of a relationship with her at that time.

Self reflection. I am viewing this as though it happened 2 weeks ago. I suppose I need to get past that and realize the relationships as they were 8 months ago.

[slappy]

<font color=#ff9900>She probably liked you both, and once she realised that she liked you more, she thought it best to keep quiet about what she did before hand. She probably thought it was a mistake, and saw that she would be happier with you.

Your friend knew that you liked her, and he was in the wrong to get into her knickers,
'I was not obvious with my intentions because I figured she thought of me as a friend'
but if you were giving this impression, then he hasn';t really done anything wrong.

You are right that friends stick around for a lot longer than girls. But do you really need to pick one or the other??

Let them know how you feel get over it and move on. If you dump the girl for your friend you will resent your friend, if you dump the friend to be with the girl you will resent the girl and probably end up without either of them.</font>

[Mudflap]

I'm with the other stupids. Forget about it and resume productive relationships with both.

If ya wanna get even, have a picture taken of you french kissing his little sister and hang it on your wall. Tell 'em you were drunk when it happened and giggle like a school girl.

[slappy]

<font color=#ff9900>*oranges all over Mudflap*

oooh it's good to be orange isn't it!</font>

[Billyman]

Originally posted by boats
Self reflection. I am viewing this as though it happened 2 weeks ago. I suppose I need to get past that and realize the relationships as they were 8 months ago.

And realize the relationships as they are now 8 months later. ;)

[boats]

that too.

[Venus]

See boats, the big point here is that all this happened before you and the girl started dating. Before there a relationship. And that's the reason you can't fairly hold any of this against her, or your friend for that matter.

[MAC]

all good points, designed to keep you from fucking up something very good in your life because of petty selfish insecurities.

now go lay down in the dark and listen to the question you are still asking yourself, then you'll know why I am late for work every day and why I feel sick so often

let it go or let it eat you, I guess

good night

[Cruise Director]

Man, sometimes I hate this place! They always seem to cover all of the best answers before you get here!

If this were a poll, I think the results would be pretty "one-sided."

[squee]

boats, every response which says, in effect, "Forget it, it was a meaningless act due to the alcohol, and plus you weren't really dating," is bullshit.

You said it yourself early on...she lied (a lie of omission) in order to get you. Think of this in context of anyone, male or female, who is ashamed of a promiscuous past who lies to their current mate about their past lovers. This is usury. You are reduced to the level of a means for this girl to get what she wants. There is nothing meaningful about what you do together since she will probably pull it on someone else.

Other replies I have seen are to the effect of "Do you love this girl?" Think about it. I think real love will negate any of your suspicion or ill will towards the girl.

Then again, just because you love someone isn't enough of a reason to get together or stay with a person...

I guess all I'm saying is, you could probably work it out, but you probably shouldn't bother. Kick her to the curb and find someone worth it.

[slappy]

<font color=#ff9900>I personally would forget about it, but if you have to choose, I agree with squee... give the girl the boot. Stick with your friend.</font>

[Billyman]

boats has already made the BEST and most RATIONAL decision.

[Mudflap]

Squee, where is thy godly forgiving nature?

[Uberwonder]

I wouldn't consider her not saying anything as a lie, Squee. Consider this, maybe it wasn't really any of his fucking business. They were not dating when it happened. She doesn't really owe him any explaination especially considering the fact that it did occur while ALL THREE were not in any sort of a dating/commitment situation and it was simply information that would possibly cause pain (which it did). I don't know why it was put forth anyway.
Personally, if I had been in his shoes, I would have shrugged it off when I heard it.
Squee, I realize you view premarital sex in a different light but viewed as these three see it, there was no foul.
He has no problem having sex outside marriage and neither does she or the friend. I would assume that none of the three were virgins prior to all this and I would hope that the archaic view of "tainted women" would be removed from this scenario.

So what was this BEST and most RATIONAL decision, anyway?
*edit* Nevermind, found the other thread.

[Koliedrus]

Ya never know when something like this might help someone else so here (http://www.thehypertribe.net/forum/showthread.php?threadid=8758)'s the thread Uber mentioned.

Sounds like a pretty damned valuable Lesson if you don't mind, boats.

You were accidentally cut; not intentionally stabbed.

[squee]

Uber: If a girl "does something" with a good friend of mine and then neither one tells me before we start dating, then yeah, I call foul. There's an unspoken rule, for one thing, where no girl can go from friend to friend. If we wanted to pass around a party favor we would call dial-a-date.

Look at what people do these days...nobody gets married anymore. Instead, they move in together, they buy groceries, they fuck, they get a puppy. And then when one cheats it's "Well, it wasn't really in a marraige." Or before that, "It's not like it was a serious relationship." "It's not like they were dating." Etc. The extent to which the bullshit goes on is not important, only the fact that it occurs.

[Koliedrus]

"These days" aren't that much different from "those days" except that women have the same options as men. It used to be that a man could rent a whore and slap his wife if she gave him grief about it. No, thanks.

Both my wife and I have had previous relationships. When we lived together (for four years), part of what we did to build the relationship was let out parts of our past as the comfort level allowed. Both of us reached points where we said, "that's enough. I don't want to know more."

By doing that, we didn't suddenly commit. We created the commitment.

I'm not perfect. Neither is she. I don't want (and would be severely humbled by) perfection. I'm greatly appreciative of having a second part of me that is equally imperfect. I wouldn't have it otherwise.

We bought groceries while we were living together. Her cat became our Yin. Our marriage was a matter of vacation time when it came around and I will never forget how welcoming it felt to vow myself to her. Twice.

Don't think that because times have changed, people have fallen into a whirlpool of confusion.

Some things just come naturally. Maybe I've been given a special gift. I'd like to think that it isn't for the few.

Call it Faith.

[Uberwonder]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by squee
Uber: If a girl "does something" with a good friend of mine and then neither one tells me before we start dating, then yeah, I call foul.

<font color = yellow>Hey, I totally understand how some people may feel as you do. I just don't happen to feel that way. It also isn't a matter of whether I think I am right and you are wrong. </font>

There's an unspoken rule, for one thing, where no girl can go from friend to friend.

<font color = yellow>There may be some sort of "unspoken rule" somewhere but please don't think that it is either universal or uniformly subscribed to. I would almost have to consider that rule age specific as one of it's qualifiers. Do you also feel that the opposite holds true? Are two girls who know each other never allowed to date the same guy?</font>

If we wanted to pass around a party favor we would call dial-a-date.

<font color = yellow>Is a guy a party favor if he scores a few times at a party? I thought they were called "studs". You speak of the female in this as a piece of property. </font>

Look at what people do these days...nobody gets married anymore.

<font color = yellow>Nobody? I went to a wedding yesterday.</font>

Instead, they move in together, they buy groceries, they fuck, they get a puppy.

<font color = yellow>Some get kitties.</font>

And then when one cheats it's "Well, it wasn't really in a marraige."

<font color = yellow>Man, you must live in a really small world. I have seen that happen a number of times to friends and none have ever uttered those words.</font>

Or before that, "It's not like it was a serious relationship." "It's not like they were dating." Etc. The extent to which the bullshit goes on is not important, only the fact that it occurs.

<font color = yellow>No, since the scenario you create is such a rarity, it doesn't really matter that it occurs and should not me misconscrued as the commonest occurance.

I don't know, Squee. I feel like you are not seeing this without bigotry. If the act was a sin then you are saying one of the parties has sinned greater than the other and she should be shunned for her part and he is to be forgiven.

"Whoa... Dude, Chicks may come and go... But like, dudes are buds forever."
Kind of 'Bill & Ted'ish if you ask me.</font>

[SimpleSimon]

Squee, look above again. It isn't often, but even Uber gets one right now and then.

[MuffyTheVampyreLayer]

So Squee - you want friends who will tell you stuff which is none of your business and will only end up hurting you?

[mute]

i agree with the people who told you to go back to her. by the sounds of it you 2 have something going good. if either one them (your friend and girlfriend) do something like that again, fuck them both. and when i say do something like that again i mean either they fooling around again, or seperately doing something behind your back. like her getting with another guy, and him stealing from you.

[Venus]

So, he should give up a 6 year friendship, and the girl he loves because of something that happened 9 months ago, before she became his girlfriend? Don't you think you're holding a pretty high standered for the gril and the friend? If boats didn't express his feelings and intentions towards this girl to either his friend or the gril, they've done nothing wrong in the friendship. If she kissed or fooled around with one guy one weekend, and another guy the next, even friends, that's for her to feel bad about, not for you to judge her on. Have you never kept a secret from a friend or loved one in hopes to make them happy? If friend or girl had told him of this when it happened, boats may not have known the love and happiness he has now and you're telling him to throw it away because of that?

We're not talking about someone in a committed relationship cheating on their SO by fooling around with someone else. This is two people who weren't in a committed relationship. It doesn't seem like the friend and gril and proud of what happened and are laughing at boats behind his back.

Boats, would you mind if I asked you how this came out?

[boats]

Actually, I don't have too much of a choice. Well, I do but....I can't live without them both. I can't. The fact is that when weighting the hurt I'll feel living with this versus the hurt of not living with either of them it's a no brainer.

Maybe I am the chump...but I'd feel more so like it with this happening and then having no girlfriend and no friend.

My friend came to my house wednesday night bawling his eyes out. He was begging for me to punch him. They both feel bad about lying to me, and I have no choice but to forgive them.

No choice.

-- boats

[squee]

I'll start in reverse order...

What's important here is that, unless I radically misunderstand the original post, both boats and the girl had expressed interest in one another; his friend, if he had been a true friend, would not have fooled around with her, and I would question her own morality if she has no problem fooling around with one guy while angling to get with his friend.

In any case, he kept it a secret because he felt guilty. She kept it a secret because she (correctly) knew that boats might not want to pursue the relationship if he knew about it. They are right to be ashamed of what they did--that is, of keeping it a secret.

Muffy, it would have been none of boats' business if and only if he had not yet expressed any interest in the girl, nor she in him; because it could affect his decision-making process, his friend (if he is a true friend) is obligated to tell him. That his friend knew of the interest is the whole reason why this is a big deal.

Of course, if you want to stay happy and that's it (the term for which is utility rather than hedonism as you claimed before) then by all means, live your relationships according to those little white lies, like little bloodless paper cuts. Go ahead and deny that they sting.

I'm not saying that I enjoy being unhappy, or that I have never lied to a friend because I thought it would make them happy, but then again I don't claim that such behavior is ok; I recognize that it was the wrong thing to do.

mojo brings up an interesting point. In short: "If they fool around again, then definately exclude them both from your life." When I read boats' story to the guys I work with, the general consensus was that neither the girl nor the guy would have told boats this factoid unless it had been repeated, or found out, and they are trying to perform some damage control by telling him before he finds out from someone else. In other words, something brought this out, and like Venus I'm anxious to know what it is.

Uber: The unspoken rule does exist and is generally recognized under the rubric of "decent behavior." I know you forumites don't go in for such bourgeois conventional bullshit morality but that doesn't affect how people feel. It's too bad that you can't empathise with boats. I've been in his shoes before.

My ire is reserved almost entirely for the friend. I judge the girlfriend's actions negatively because she used boats; but his friend's behavior even more harshly because he should have known better.

I'm not sure but it looks as if you're actually defending the double standard which says that men who fuck around are to be lauded while women are chastised...hardly an enlightened standpoint from which to label other people "bigots." And the "scenario" happens all the time: over the past couple of years it has happened to every twentysomething I know who was considering marraige, and also to so many people I hear about secondhand...I don't accept your denial. I think rather that you are the one who can't see what's going on.

Uber, given the fact that boats is pissed off and the best friend and girlfriend both feel terrible, are you still going to tell me that there's "no foul?" Or do you mean rather, according to your own system of morality, there should be no foul?

[SimpleSimon]

It would appear from his own words that Boats has resolved this matter to his own emotional satisfaction, resulting in his decision to go forward with his relationship both with the young women in question, and the friend.

People make mistakes, people try to justify and hide those errors, and sometimes people conclude that the justification and deception are not worth the personal cost, so they disclose those errors to others affected and attempt to make amends. It frequently has nothing to do with being about to be found out.

Guess what? Despite your narrow-minded, rigid, self-aggrandizing and supercilious commentary, it is not your decision to make, and you are patently erroneous in your evaluatiuon. Get over it.

[squee]

Uh, Simon, if you looked back at my first post on the topic you will I advised boats to go ahead if he believes that he loves the girl. Which he is probably going to do (his treatment of his friend is up in the air).

I never claimed that I had the right to decide for him, although you seem to reserve the right to choose what I do and do not say. Your entire post is in error. Thank you for playing, please come again.

[Uberwonder]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by squee
[B]I'll start in reverse order...

<font color = yellow>I'll throw my bucks worth on these points too If you don't mind...</font>

What's important here is that, unless I radically misunderstand the original post, both boats and the girl had expressed interest in one another; his friend, if he had been a true friend, would not have fooled around with her, and I would question her own morality if she has no problem fooling around with one guy while angling to get with his friend.

<font color = yellow>Ahhhh I cannot think of all the times I have commented to a friend on being attracted to a girl. I got the impression from his original post that he did not express his feelings to his friend all that well and not at all to her so the playing field was wiiiide open imo.</font>

In any case, he kept it a secret because he felt guilty. She kept it a secret because she (correctly) knew that boats might not want to pursue the relationship if he knew about it. They are right to be ashamed of what they did--that is, of keeping it a secret.

<font color = yellow>I sort of agree with you. At first, once the two of them hooked up, I can understand neither wanting to jump up and "confess all". I can also see where later on down the line, they felt bad about it and wanted to clear the air. I would consider both to be better friends with boat for having those3 sort of feelings rather than just not giving a shit at all.</font>


Muffy, it would have been none of boats' business if and only if he had not yet expressed any interest in the girl, nor she in him; because it could affect his decision-making process, his friend (if he is a true friend) is obligated to tell him. That his friend knew of the interest is the whole reason why this is a big deal.

<font color = yellow>See above.</font>

Of course, if you want to stay happy and that's it (the term for which is utility rather than hedonism as you claimed before) then by all means, live your relationships according to those little white lies, like little bloodless paper cuts. Go ahead and deny that they sting.

<font color = yellow>Obviously they did sting and they wanted to make amends.</font>

I'm not saying that I enjoy being unhappy, or that I have never lied to a friend because I thought it would make them happy, but then again I don't claim that such behavior is ok; I recognize that it was the wrong thing to do.

mojo brings up an interesting point. In short: "If they fool around again, then definately exclude them both from your life." When I read boats' story to the guys I work with, the general consensus was that neither the girl nor the guy would have told boats this factoid unless it had been repeated, or found out, and they are trying to perform some damage control by telling him before he finds out from someone else. In other words, something brought this out, and like Venus I'm anxious to know what it is.

<font color = yellow>Me too.</font>

Uber: The unspoken rule does exist and is generally recognized under the rubric of "decent behavior." I know you forumites don't go in for such bourgeois conventional bullshit morality but that doesn't affect how people feel. It's too bad that you can't empathise with boats. I've been in his shoes before.

<font color = yellow>I never said it didn't exist. Let me be a little more blunt since my soft approach seemed to be lost on you. It's fucking highschool bullshit that carries over into your still immature early twenties is what it is. "Oh, Biff, I can't date you because even though we broke up last semester, I did go steady with Skip and you two are both on the football team!!". Give me a fucking break, Archie.
You will find that as you grow older that people will generally behave in a more mature manner. Two single people who are attracted to each other enough to engage in a relationship should not (and do not once they've grown up a bit) have to avoid each other simply because one of them happened to have had a relationship with a friend of the other unless that relationship was still ongoing. ESPECIALLY a one time deal. Shit, it isn't like they were fucking engaged to be married.
I live in a small town. There is a fair amount of single adults here. By that I mean late twenties to early forties. I can think of a dozen instances recently of couples who have started relationships after meeting each other through a mutual friend who had dated one of them. As mature adults, they realize that two people who are attracted to each other don't have to see if one of them was "owned" by a friend prior to their dating.


Here's one big point for you. You need to quit generalizing and talking in absolutes. It is a piss poor way to try and bolster your arguement.
"Your forumites...". Fuck you, you make it sound like we are all inbred sheep who proscribe to the same identical and immoral principles. For your information, there are as many different views on this as their are members and just because the rest of the forum didn't jump on your pious fucking bandwagon does not mean we all automatically have a propinquity with each other.

Too bad I can't emphasis with boats???? What the fuck are you talking about? If I didn't have any empathy for the guy, I never would have bothered with a serious response.

You've been in his shoes, eh? Glad to see you have such a huge amount of life experiences under your belt. Dude, I fucking wore those shoes out. I have been in BOTH of their shoes. Fuck, I was in those fucking shoes before you existed (God, I hate saying that but every once in a while, it just fucking gets to me when someone who has just fucking started his adult life has to go break fucking worldly on me)</font>

My ire is reserved almost entirely for the friend. I judge the girlfriend's actions negatively because she used boats; but his friend's behavior even more harshly because he should have known better.

<font color = yellow>I would suggest that you wait for all the facts before you go passing judgement on the friend. I don't know that the friend was truly aware of boat's real feelings at the time and his post tends to support that thought. I also do not see where you can say the girl used boats.</font>

I'm not sure but it looks as if you're actually defending the double standard which says that men who fuck around are to be lauded while women are chastised...hardly an enlightened standpoint from which to label other people "bigots."

<font color = yellow>I'm glad you aren't sure because you are totally wrong. Go back and read what I wrote slowly. I was accusing you of the double standard, not defending it. You were the one to say the girl should be kicked to the curb, were you not? I noticed how you didn't bother answering whether the same rules apply to men as to women either.</font>


And the "scenario" happens all the time:

<font color = yellow>"ALL" the time? Every single time?</font>

over the past couple of years it has happened to every twentysomething I know who was considering marraige,

<font color = yellow>"EVERY" single one??</font>

and also to so many people I hear about secondhand...I don't accept your denial. I think rather that you are the one who can't see what's going on.

<font color = yellow>No, I see, and did see when I was your age, what is going on. The difference is that I have seen the scenario you speak of as a small part of what goes on in real life. I find the fact that you have seen (by your words) absolutely NOTHING but this scenario happening to EVERY person you know (again, by your words) as not being pathetic as it would be if it were true but your own inability to see beyond your biases. You need to take a long hard look at how you view the world before you ever put yourself in a position of guidance over another human. If you don't, you will be doing a great disservice to your faith and to your fellow man.</font>

Uber, given the fact that boats is pissed off and the best friend and girlfriend both feel terrible, are you still going to tell me that there's "no foul?"

<font color = yellow>The fact that a person gets pissed of about something does not necessarily mean that they have a valid reason to overreact to the situation.
I also find that the sorrow apparently expressed by the "offending parties" to be a fair atonement considering the circumstances.
By what I have read form his posting, there are definately mitigating circumstances and that there is no real foul here.</font>

Or do you mean rather, according to your own system of morality, there should be no foul?

<font color = yellow>By "my" system of morality, which is obviously far different than yours, I believe that; as there was no original intent to do harm to boats and that since it was a one time occurance and that both parties did and do express sorrow for their act and have asked for his forgiveness that the slate should be wiped clean on both counts and that boats should be happy to have both in his life.
You see, I proscribe to the CHRISTIAN tenet of forgiveness, especially when forgiveness is sincerely sought. I don't know what fucking judgemental and so quick to condemn tenet you seem to have been sucked into but I'm glad I don't agree with it.


One thing that I can say about my qualifications on this subject is that, unlike you, I have figured out how to have a happy, permenant, trusting and loving relationship and I did so through the school of hard knocks and not by luck.</font>

[squee]

Well, Uber, I'm glad that you are so far advanced beyond my own pathetic adolescent stage, that you have found true happiness and enlightenment, etc. etc. I'll respond to all this later. I'm getting burnt out.

[Uberwonder]

Ahhh but I have not found enlightenment (I'm pretty happy I must say...). One thing that I do know is that the more I learn, the more I realize how little I have learned.

Do consider this. You may have been in this shoe, I was and most everyone I know was....
Remember when you first got your driver's license? I do. I was the baddest dude on the road. I could outdrive everyone out there. I knew I had faster reflexes, sharper vision and an athletic ability that made me a more superior driver than all those old farts I was passing (sometimes on a double yellow line but then, I was a DRIVER).

Do you see those kids when you are out driving now squee? I know you have been driving for a while and will bet that you are a fairly astute driver. But you see those kids.
We both know that dispite all the abilities that they may have that would make tham good drivers, the one thing they do not have that will supercede all there reflexes, daring do, hand eye coordination, etc is experience.

I wasn't trying to be egotistical when I responded. I happen to have a lot more experience than you. It's just a fact. Simon is responding in a similar vein for the exact same reason. It isn't that we follow the same beliefs, he also has experience.

Try responding without letting your ego do the typing.

[SimpleSimon]

Originally posted by squee
Uh, Simon, if you looked back at my first post on the topic you will I advised boats to go ahead if he believes that he loves the girl. Which he is probably going to do (his treatment of his friend is up in the air).

I never claimed that I had the right to decide for him, although you seem to reserve the right to choose what I do and do not say. Your entire post is in error. Thank you for playing, please come again.

emphasis added


That sums your viewpoint up quite nicely.

As for choosing what you do and do not say, I leave that to you. How I respond to fatuous drivel is up to me.

As for the rest, Uber got most of it correct, but said it more diplomatically than I likely would. Your particular brand of self-serving moralistic posturing is something I dealt with professionally for a long time, and my patience for and with it is exhausted.

Play your intellectual games, Squee, I'll get on with my life.

[Billyman]

I'm just happy to see wonder hasn't lost his charm. :D

[squee]

Originally posted by Uberwonder
Try responding without letting your ego do the typing.

Point well-taken. I retract my earlier post--especially my comments concerning "you forumites" as inappropriate, inaccurate, wrong. Thanks for the reality check.

I maintain, however, that Simon is a soft-headed tit.

[SimpleSimon]

Thick-headed, perhaps. Soft-headed, never. I leave that to those, such as yourself, whose fontanellae remain unclosed.

[Venus]

Originally posted by Billyman
I'm just happy to see wonder hasn't lost his charm. :D

Me too, I was getting worried about him.

[3MTA3]

How can a man tear himself up over a blowjob? Friends fuck...thats just what happens when girls and boys get together...give it enough time and you will have screwed all your buddies female friends too...it just happens...go with it...

[MuffyTheVampyreLayer]

You're speaking from personal experience here 3M?