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Spooky
04-30-2001, 12:37 PM
I must admit. Although I am not an americans, and I don;lt like liberalising markets, and infettered economies, I have to say that my limited understanding of capital gains tax is inherently unfair.

I believe in taxation, I also believe in progressive taxation to pay for public services. But I donlt think one bit of money should be subject to taxation more than once because it was earned, taxed, invested, taxed again, invested, taxed again. This is a regressive tax that is more reminiscint of a poor law than anything else in my opinion

MuffyTheVampyreLayer
04-30-2001, 12:40 PM
Hmmm. Depends really, dosn't it. In NZ we got our tax cuts (my personal gain ammounted to about two extra bottles of milk a week) - In the meantime, the govt still hadn't fixed the problems in the health system which the earlier tax increases were supposed to fix in the first place... now they just tax the smokers instead. Any govt which is not a libertarian one is going to try to screw you out of money however they can, tax or otherwise. As it is a minority which are sensible enough to actually want a lib govt, perhaps the focus should be on HOW the govt spends your money.

[This message has been edited by MuffyTheVampyreLayer (edited 04-30-2001).]

MAC
04-30-2001, 12:57 PM
I'll ask a question of those of you from other nations, cause I honestly don't know.

When you get paid...
What % do they take out of your check immediately?

When you fill your car up with gas...
What % of the price per gal/liter?

When you buy chips or candy....
what % do you pay in tax?

When you pay your phone bill?

When you buy a house?

When you buy a board to fix the rail on your front porch at the house you were taxed to buy and taxed to keep and taxed to live in when you bought the electric/water which you must have to pay your taxes on the insurance you must have to live in the house to protect the belongings you were taxed on when you bought them with what was left of the income you were taxed on.......

and they NEVER dare to publish what the $$$ went for.
They tell us its schools.
Its for the kids.

Think I'll buy a lottery ticket.
At least I get to chose to pay that tax.

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Don't shake the devil's hand and say you're only kidding.

<IMG SRC="http://www.tyler.net/roguewarrior/images/macsnake.jpg" border=0>

Pianomahnn
04-30-2001, 04:06 PM
These posts keep making me angry. I need to stop and smell the roses...I don't think there is a tax on that. Unless I planted them, which means I bought them, which means, ah fuck.

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King Bastard
04-30-2001, 04:51 PM
<FONT COLOR="Red">I am one of those to whom this does not apply at all, so I need to have it broken down for me more than it already has been so I can understand it better.

But Mac has a damn fine point. let' ssay that I earn $400 in one week. Right of the top, out comes about $80. That's $4160 a year. OK, now I fuel up the car that let's me get back and forth to work. The fuel only costs about a dollar a gallon, but I pay almost a buck and a half for it. Tolls for bridges, tax on new tires after the old ones wear thin....

Shit, even tho I'm not subject to this tax type mentioned in the original post, I still pay thru the nose, and I'm pissed. I cant imagine how you people who are subject to it feel.</FONT c>

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Borne of sin, C',mon in... Andre Linoge; Storm of the Century

Cruise Director
04-30-2001, 05:53 PM
I can't play the lottery in my state. Highest per capita children in the U.S. and the damn State won't let me WILLINGLY help pay for their education.

I have a good friend that told me he sold drugs to avoid taxation. I printed him a copy of our state DRUG TAX CODE (http://www.le.state.ut.us/~code/TITLE59/59_13.htm)

I would say that the government has crossed the line; but they don't even acknowledge that there IS a line to cross ?!?!

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We all float down here...

Spooky
05-01-2001, 12:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by theMAC:
When you get paid...
What % do they take out of your check immediately?[/quote]

In the UK: This depends on how much you earn. Most people are in the middle bracket. Which basically means that income is 21% of the taxable amount in your wage. That is NOT 21% of the whol lot. If I may I will explain. We have two dedcution from wages. One is called 'National Insurnace'. National INsurance is currently set at about 8% of the entire wage packet. It is dedcuted and pays for the National Health Service (free healthcare for all based on clinical need not the ability to pay), note not all of the NI payment goes for the NHS alone, but a large majority does. Also note that if you don;t work you don't pay NI, but you still get free healthcare as everyone else.

The next thing to come off is PAYE (Pay As You Earn). This is basically the income tax. Income tax is not on the whoel amount, it is on only the taxable amount. Everyone in the UK has an amount they can earn that is free from tax. This is usually about £4000 per year ($6500). Thus anything earned above this figure is taxable. So say you earn £5000 per year, only £1000 is subject to income tax. Then it gets a little confusing. If the taxable amount is £10000 per year or less, then you are subject to income tax at 10%. This means that if your gross salary is 14K. Tax is dedcuted at 10% off the taxable amount of approx 10K. Working out to tax for the year of 1k. In my case I earn above this so my tax is 20% of the taxable amount. Those earning over 50K are taxed at 40% on the taxable amount.

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>
When you fill your car up with gas...
What % of the price per gal/liter?
[/quote]

In the UK, taxation on fuel as risen massively in the past few years. I believe we pay about 80p per litre, which is like $1.20 per litre.

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>
When you buy chips or candy....
what % do you pay in tax?
[/quote]

We don't in the UK. Food is not subject to VAT (Value Added Tax) it is only subject to the mark up from cost the seller chooses.

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>
When you pay your phone bill?
[/quote]

VAT applies here. This is et at a constant of 17.5%. This is the same figure for all products with the excpetion of food, childrens clothes and newspapers.

Now as for your other points, I can't really comment on how money is spent in the US. I know that in the UK, we come from a totally different premis when it comes to taxation etc. Our premis have some basic tenats that are given and accepted as norms, like national healthcare for all, free ducation for all up to 18, social housing for the disadvantaged, public services funded by taxation. Persoanlly I don't think any of us in the uK pay enough tax. We all complain about wanting better services, more hospitals, better schools etc, then in the next pbreath we hear the same people complain that they want lower taxes??? Well excuse me, but logic as far as I am concerend says that you don;t get something for nothing.
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Pianomahnn
05-01-2001, 12:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by RogueWarrior:
Why should I have to bear the burden of other people's stupidity, and pay for the privilege?
[/quote]

Oh Rogue, you just don't get it do you? We're all loving humans. It's our humanly duty to help those who are more mentally deficient that us. We need to give away our hard earned cash to those who are lazy, don't work, can't walk because they're high or drunk.

http://www.thehypertribe.net/ubb/rolleyes.gif http://www.thehypertribe.net/ubb/rolleyes.gif http://www.thehypertribe.net/ubb/rolleyes.gif

FUCK THIS SHIT. When will people start paying for me???????????

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Spooky
05-01-2001, 12:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by RogueWarrior:
Sp00ky, rarely a day goes by that I am not thankful that my Scottish ancestors didn't kill your English ones. http://www.thehypertribe.net/ubb/smile.gif
[/quote]

Well they tried, but they were unorganised and had a traitor leading them in Robert De Bruce http://www.thehypertribe.net/ubb/wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>
Why is it that you believe everyone deserves the things you mentioned? The housing, the healthcare, etc. Shouldn't people who can't take care of themselves be provided for, but the rest left on their own?[/quote]

Well RW. Like I said. Our differences in opinion come directly from the fact that we have two different premis's. In this country the premiss is accepted as the norm that healthcare should be universal. As I said, it is based on clinical need and not the ability to pay. I think this is humanitarian and entirely forward looking approach to ensuring the health of a nation. I don't think it is morally right to let people have poorer care becasue they do not have the ability to pay for it.

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>
Once upon a time, there was a process called "natural selection", and it worked well indeed.
[/quote]

Well as you very well know, this is a theoretical academic notion. Although that is not really what is under discussion. Your use of Natuiral selection as an argument is in my opinion flawed for one very simple reason. That reaosn is that 'natural selection' is about the development of a species in biological non sentient terms. It is not an argument that I think can be justifiably applied to the material progression of human society and sentient beings.

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>
Shouldn't people have to bear the consequences of their actions?
[/quote]

Well I am not sure I fully understand this statemnet. I mean, if someone is born into poor circumstance then how can they be responsible for that? An attitude such as this, in my opinion does nothign more but maintain divisive class distinctions in society where class distinction should not need to exist.

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>
Why should I have to bear the burden of other people's stupidity, and pay for the privilege?
[/quote]

Well first I will refer you to my comment above. That those born into particular circumstance cannot be held responsible for their position. As for your other point about feeling that you have responsible , I guess it all depends on what you feel the role of society is and what uyour place in that society is. IMHO if you wish to be a memebr of civil society then you must accept that with memebrship comes certain tacit agreements. Those tacit agreemnts are things like, social well being, and maintenace of that actual society. Anyway, look I have to go now, my other half has just lost her job so I am very off put by this atm.