God?

[SimpleSimon]

I know I'll raise some hackles with this, but this site is great. Here is one statement from them:

http://sysopmind.com/tmol-faq/meaningoflife.html


4.4: Is there a God?
What difference does it make, in terms of concrete choices? Would you suddenly stop trying to be a good person if it were revealed that there is no God? Would you suddenly become an altruist if you learned there was? What's right is right, whether or not God exists, and the qualities that make a good person are widely agreed upon in any case. Is there any reason to care, aside from pure curiosity?

The questions that do affect concrete choices have to do with the rather more general question, "Does an entity with the power and motivation to do X exist?" For example, selfish people considering a conversion to altruism want to know if God exists and will hold them to account. (1). Even if you knew whether or not God existed, it wouldn't answer the question. If you knew that God existed, you couldn't conclude God was interested in holding you to account. If you knew that God didn't exist, you couldn't conclude that no entity held the power of retribution.

[sauron]

Originally posted by SimpleSimon
I know I'll raise some hackles with this, but this site is great. Here is one statement from them:


4.4: Is there a God?
What difference does it make, in terms of concrete choices? Would you suddenly stop trying to be a good person if it were revealed that there is no God? Would you suddenly become an altruist if you learned there was? What's right is right, whether or not God exists, and the qualities that make a good person are widely agreed upon in any case. Is there any reason to care, aside from pure curiosity?




Who defines what "right" and "not right" are?

- d.

[Lightbulb]

The left handed.

[Asmodeus]

Originally posted by Lightbulb
The left handed.

*smacks ya upside the head with my right hand*

Teach me for following the crowd. :D

Nice read SS.

[Mudflap]

I went to church yesterday and found God. He wants offerings. All you got.

[Cruise Director]

I rather agree with that article. Simon and I were talking about that a little bit in IRC the other night.

When I first shed religion I got in quite the debate with one of my co-workers. He asked me "why aren't you out raping and stealing?" I asked him why I would do such things and he said "if you don't believe in God you can't be a moral person."

That's the problem. Morality and theology have nothing to do with each other. I can be a moral, upstanding citizen without believing in a diety. In fact, I think my set of morals is set quite a bit higher than those of some religious people.

All along I've subscribed to the theory that if believing in a God makes you a better person in your everyday life, then more power to you.

[Billyman]

Originally posted by Cruise Director
In fact, I think my set of morals is set quite a bit higher than those of some religious people.

Indeed my friend.

We've taken much hypocrisy out of our lives too.

[Barbie]

Originally posted by Cruise Director
That's the problem. Morality and theology have nothing to do with each other. I can be a moral, upstanding citizen without believing in a diety. In fact, I think my set of morals is set quite a bit higher than those of some religious people.

All along I've subscribed to the theory that if believing in a God makes you a better person in your everyday life, then more power to you.

Morality & Theology ...so true so true...

Morality is a concept that evolved because it helps us form our societies. You don't need a god to have morals.

http://www.geocities.com/atheist_anon/questions/how_moral.htm

"What exactly is morality? Morality is composed of values that help us decide what is good and bad. Do atheists have values? Of course. Religion is not the only source of morality. We can get morals from our parents, our peers, society, and our own beliefs and practices.”

“Atheists may be, in some instances, more ethical than their theistic counterparts. (Obviously, this can only be determined on a case by case basis. Neither atheists nor theists could honestly call themselves morally superior to the other.) Think about it though; atheists can't pray to a god asking for forgiveness from wrongdoing. It wouldn't make sense for an atheist to do so. This means we have to take responsibility for our own actions (the complete opposite of what we're accused of). While there are definitely theists who take responsibility for their actions, there are also those who commit the unethical and ask for forgiveness. Then, they resume with their lives as if nothing occurred to begin with. Who's dodging moral responsibility now?”

Morality
The values that help us decide whether an action is good or bad based on many factors, including: beliefs, values, childhood lessons, etc. Although religion is usually thought to be the basis of morality, it is not.

"Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily. All other "sins" are invented nonsense."
-- Robert A. Heinlein

If the only reason you don’t stealing, raping, murdering or just being a general asshole is that you want to be rewarded after death, you’re a dick. You are not a moral person.
Doing what you think is good only because you don’t want to go to hell is like saying you didn’t steal the car because didn’t want to go to jail. There is such a thing as doing the right thing for the wrong reasons.

I have a conscience.

Too many people out there seem to think they can act like complete pricks all week long, then sing a few hymns and thing that it’s okay, because you’re Christian. There’s no automatic redemption. Being baptized or saying a confession does not make everything right again.

[Billyman]

Originally posted by Barbie
*snipage*

Amen.

[Clayton]

*speechless*

[simiantics]

If the only reason you don’t stealing, raping, murdering or just being a general asshole is that you want to be rewarded after death, you’re a dick. You are not a moral person.
Doing what you think is good only because you don’t want to go to hell is like saying you didn’t steal the car because didn’t want to go to jail. There is such a thing as doing the right thing for the wrong reasons.

I don't see why it matters if people uphold their morality for a reward or not. Why does morality exist in society (e.g. loosely in the form of law)? It exists so that society can function. I don't kill you for two reasons: 1) it would make me feel bad 2) fear that I will be treated in kind. Ever notice how it's considered immoral by many to kick a guy in the balls in a fight (primarily if a guy does it to a guy)? This isn't for the sake of good; it's because both know that if they can square their opponent they are also susceptable to having their nuts bashed in.

In all truth, your needs do not factor into my moral treatment of you; only what I will get out of it matters [security]... and the more people that adhere to my system, the safer I feel. Still, if I say that on honour we will uphold a certain principle -- let's say to not steal from each other-- one of us will soon get it into our stupid heads to take advantage of the other, so I can sweeten the deal with a reward (e.g.) heaven, and back it with a threat of retribution. I think more than people want heaven, they fear hell [heaven and hell metaphorically].

[sauron]

I will admit, that once I started replying to this post, I started wondering what the point of the post (thread?) was - yes, morals exist - but I fail to see any deeper meaning other than "We don't need God to have morals, nyah nyah" (severely paraphrased).

Then again, maybe Simon's just trying to stir the pot, and I'm not "getting it" - who cares.

Originally posted by Barbie


Morality & Theology ...so true so true...

Morality is a concept that evolved because it helps us form our societies. You don't need a god to have morals.


"Having God" (read: believing in God) didn't give me morals, I already had them (although they were of a questionable nature) - it merely changed what they were, generally for the better..


http://www.geocities.com/atheist_anon/questions/how_moral.htm

"What exactly is morality? Morality is composed of values that help us decide what is good and bad. Do atheists have values? Of course. Religion is not the only source of morality. We can get morals from our parents, our peers, society, and our own beliefs and practices.”

“Atheists may be, in some instances, more ethical than their theistic counterparts. (Obviously, this can only be determined on a case by case basis. Neither atheists nor theists could honestly call themselves morally superior to the other.) Think about it though; atheists can't pray to a god asking for forgiveness from wrongdoing. It wouldn't make sense for an atheist to do so. This means we have to take responsibility for our own actions (the complete opposite of what we're accused of). While there are definitely theists who take responsibility for their actions, there are also those who commit the unethical and ask for forgiveness. Then, they resume with their lives as if nothing occurred to begin with. Who's dodging moral responsibility now?”


I find it interesting, that this text first states Obviously, this can only be determined on a case by case basis - and then later makes a thinly veiled attempt at generalizing about christians (cf. While there are definitely theists who take responsibility for their actions, there are also those who commit the unethical and ask for forgiveness. Then, they resume with their lives as if nothing occurred to begin with. Who's dodging moral responsibility now?)

People tend to think that the christian concept of "Asking for forgiveness (from God)" - is a catch-all one-way ticket out of trouble. This is wrong - we're still held accountable for the wrongdoings we do, just like everybody else. Yes, whereas some wannabe christians might claim that they can do whatever they want, because they'll be forgiven by God (because they've accepted him as their savior) - the vast majority of christians I know (including myself) would never believe it.

And now you can bring up the trump card - "But I never said I was talking about _all_ christians..." - even the text that was quoted, is written in such a way, as to empower the atheist (by portraying them as someone generally good, who does wrong things sometimes), and depowering the theist (by portraying them as someone who does a lot of bad things, with some "good" exceptions).

I don't buy it, sorry.


Morality
The values that help us decide whether an action is good or bad based on many factors, including: beliefs, values, childhood


I'll emphasize beliefs here.


lessons, etc. Although religion is usually thought to be the basis of morality, it is not.

"Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily. All other "sins" are invented nonsense."
-- Robert A. Heinlein

If the only reason you don’t stealing, raping, murdering or just being a general asshole is that you want to be rewarded after death, you’re a dick. You are not a moral person.
Doing what you think is good only because you don’t want to go to hell is like saying you didn’t steal the car because didn’t want to go to jail. There is such a thing as doing


Why did you not steal the car? Because it's "wrong" - or because you did not want to go to jail?


Too many people out there seem to think they can act like complete pricks all week long, then sing a few hymns and thing that it’s okay, because you’re Christian. There’s no automatic redemption. Being baptized or saying a confession does not make everything right again.

See my comments further up. You should really stop hanging out in the wrong crowd...

- d.

[Barbie]

Originally posted by simiantics
I think more than people want heaven, they fear hell [heaven and hell metaphorically].

Christians don't believe in heaven/hell/after-this-life metaphorically - it's exsists in their minds as a true state. So, for alot of relgious people, their act on the forethought of their afterlife and how they will or won't be greated in "the kingdom". This is how their morals are set. AND they believe that their morals (dont' come from the Bible) but from what "god" has put in their heart for the first moment of time.

So, how can an Atheist have morals? - a christian will argue that Atheists are born with it in his heart - that an Atheist has christian morals and over time, drives the notion of god out of his head.

Some Atheists are moral people because they are concsious of their doings in the here and now...and not because of after "life".
There is no "after this life" - there is no "god" to apologize to.
Guilt, conscience. That is what drives a good moral Athiest.

I am not saying that christians are immoral and that they only do good because the bible tells them too - some christians think that they are "better off" because of who they believe in and who they follow - (Christians, JW's, Mormon's, Oneness etc...)
Going to church does NOT make you a christian...just like going into a garage does not make you car)

There are some pretty wonderful christians out there. My Oma and Opa to start. They are DEVOUT. They live every moment to their bible. They are are honest, caring, loving, moral and fearful of Yehwah. Everything they do in their lives is because of Yehwah. They do believe that without YHWH, they would be murderous, dangerous, unloving fearless people, driven by "evil" and anyone who is NOT Fearful of Yehwah, is being led around by "evil" - Satan.

Perception people. Interpretation.

Back to morals: I am a relatively good person, an honest person, a caring person, and loving person - because I want to be - not because a book tells me to.


ramble ramble ramble...I need jo