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SimpleSimon
04-13-2003, 04:18 AM
I have quoted Nat Hentoff frequently in the last 2 years. There is good cause for that – he is one of the very few men who have stated publicly what is happening to civil rights and personal liberties in this country post 9/11/01.

We, as citizens, are asleep at the switch whilst the juggernaut of government accelerates this country toward certain destruction as the most free nation in modern history. Only we can stop this by forcing the government to switch tracks before the onrushing monster crushes our hopes, our dreams, our lives, and our children’s futures.

I wish I believed we would do that.



Nat Hentoff[
Vanishing Liberties
Where's the Press?
April 11th, 2003 12:00 PM

If Americans win a war (not just against Saddam Hussein but the longer-term struggle) and lose the Constitution, they will have lost everything. —Lance Morrow, Time, March 17

On March 18, the Associated Press reported that at John Carroll University, in a Cleveland suburb, Justice Antonin Scalia said that "most of the rights you enjoy go way beyond what the Constitution requires" because "the Constitution just sets minimums." Accordingly, in wartime, Scalia emphasized, "the protections will be ratcheted down to the constitutional minimum."

I checked with the Supreme Court for a text of this ominous speech and was told Scalia didn't use a text that night, but the quotation appeared to be accurate. I said, would Justice Scalia let me know? My question was relayed, but I've heard nothing since.

Most of the radical revisions of the Constitution that I and others have been writing about will ultimately be ruled on by the Supreme Court. Scalia indicates he will come down on the side of Bush and Ashcroft. A few days after the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, Justice Sandra Day O'Connor said that as a result, we would have to give up some of our liberties. That's two of nine justices we are not likely to be able to depend on.

And in his 1998 book, All the Laws but One: Civil Liberties in Wartime (Knopf/Vintage), the chief justice of the United States, William Rehnquist, admiringly quoted Francis Biddle, Franklin D. Roosevelt's attorney general: "The Constitution has not greatly bothered any wartime president." And Rehnquist himself, who will be presiding over the constitutionality of the Bush-Ashcroft assaults on the Constitution, wrote in the same book:
"In time of war, presidents may act in ways that push their legal authority to its outer limits, if not beyond." (Emphasis added.) And writing of Lincoln's suspending habeas corpus during the Civil War, Rehnquist said, "It is difficult to quarrel with this decision."

Reacting to Rehnquist's deference to the executive branch in previous wars, Adam Cohen, legal affairs writer for The New York Times, wrote: "The people whose liberties are taken away are virtually invisible" in the pages of Rehnquist's book.

Meanwhile, in an invaluable new report by the Lawyers Committee for Human Rights, "Imbalance of Powers: How Changes to U.S. Law and Policy Since 9/11 Erode Human Rights and Civil Liberties" (http://www.lchr.org/us_law/loss/imbalance/powers.pdf)(warning: requires acrobat reader, is 96 pages long) (available by calling 212-845-5200), a section begins: "A mantle of secrecy continues to envelop the executive branch, largely with the acquiescence of Congress and the courts. [This] makes effective oversight impossible, upsetting the constitutional system of checks and balances."

So where is the oversight going to come from? If at all, first from the people pressuring Congress—provided enough of us know what is happening to our rights and liberties. And that requires, as James Madison said, a vigorous press, because the press has been, he noted, "the beneficent source to which the United States owes much of the light which conducted [us] to the ranks of a free and independent nation."

But the media, with few exceptions, are failing to report consistently, and in depth, precisely how Bush and Ashcroft are undermining our fundamental individual liberties.

For example, in writing here about the Justice Department's proposed sequel to the Patriot Act (titled inoffensively the Domestic Security Enhancement Act), I noted that it had been kept secret from Congress. A week before it was leaked by an understandably anonymous member of Ashcroft's staff, a representative of the Justice Department even lied to the Senate Judiciary Committee about its very existence.

A few sections in that chilling 86-page draft were briefly covered in some of the media. But as I predicted after providing more details here ("Ashcroft Out of Control" and "Red Alert for the Bill of Rights"), these invasions of the Constitution were only a one- or two-day story in nearly all of the media.

How many Americans know that if the bill is passed (and Bush certainly won't veto it), they can be stripped of their citizenship if charged with giving "material support" to a group designated by the government as "terrorist"? Sending a check for the outfit's lawful activities—without knowing why it landed on Ashcroft's list—could make you a person without a country and put you behind bars here indefinitely. As Chief Justice Earl Warren said, "you lose the right to have rights" when you lose your citizenship.

How many Americans know that the FBI can get a warrant from the secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court and go to a library or bookstore to find out what books you read or borrow if you are somehow, according to the FBI, connected to "terrorism"?

In the First Amendment Center's "Legal Watch" newsletter (March 11-17), Charles Haynes writes that "a warning sign greets patrons entering all 10 of the county libraries in Santa Cruz, California." It says: "Beware, a record of the books you borrow may end up in the hands of the FBI. And if the FBI requests your records, librarians are prohibited by law from telling you about it." The message to the readers ends: "Questions about this policy should be directed to Attorney General John Ashcroft, Department of Justice, Washington, D.C. 20530."

Librarians—and bookstore owners—are also forbidden by this section of the law from telling the press of these visits by the FBI to inform John Ashcroft of what people on the list of suspects are reading.

I've checked with the American Library Association and am told that very few other libraries are warning their patrons to be cautious about which books they ask for. Shouldn't the press spread the news of this risk more widely?

And I've seen little in the media about a bill, "The Freedom to Read Protection Act of 2003," introduced in the House by Bernie Sanders (Independent, Vermont) that prevents the government from "searching for, or seizing from, a bookseller or library . . . materials that contain personally identifiable information concerning a patron of a bookseller or library." Under the bill, a higher standard than mere FBI suspicion will be required.

How many of you know the answer Assistant Attorney General Daniel J. Bryant sent Democratic senator Patrick Leahy of Vermont about our expectation of privacy in bookstores and libraries?
"Any [such] right of privacy," says the Justice Department, "is necessarily and inherently limited since . . . the patron is reposing that information in the library or bookstore and assumes the risk that the entity may disclose it to another."

Have you ever assumed that the librarian or bookstore owner has a right to bypass your First Amendment right to read what you choose by telling "another" (the FBI) whether you read, for example, the Voice? Senator Leahy's office made that Justice Department letter available to the press. Have you seen it before now?

3MTA3
04-13-2003, 09:05 AM
I will start from the end and work my way to the middle of this article...ok, privacy rights...the right to privacy, is it in the Constitution? Umm...NO! Show me a single clause of the Bill of Rights that bestows a right to privacy...its a judicial fabrication...it exists because of Constitutional interpritation.

So where does it come from 3MTA3? From the 9th Amendment originally as applied to the 5th and the 14th, extrapolated from your 'liberty' interests(both mention liberty, the 14th is what the civil war produced, extending the due process clause of the 5th to the states, amongst other things)...now, for the meat and bones...

"Any [such] right of privacy," says the Justice Department, "is necessarily and inherently limited since . . . the patron is reposing that information in the library or bookstore and assumes the risk that the entity may disclose it to another."Is your 'right to privacy' subject to Government limitation? Of course...even your 1st Amendment rights, those fundamental and absolute rights, are subject to limitation...can you campaign on voting day within 50 feet of a polling place(most states have much greater distances in their laws)? No...your 1st Amendment right to free speech(political speech even in this case, arguably the most important area of speech rights) is subject to limitation...because the government, in our courts, has the burden of meeting a strict scrutiny standard...they must show a compelling interest in limiting your rights(if their limitation is not a content neutral ban on a certain activity, i.e it is a law against 'blacks' or 'KKK members' or 'the religious') and they must go on to show that this limitation is narrowly tailored to achieve specifically the effect it intends, without being overbroad or overly narrow...this is Court precident...it is law.

As for your 'privacy rights', they are not provided this same absolute protection...the government must meet a much lower standard when legislating them...currently, the Court has established a rational basis test...basically the law only has to be rationally related to a ligitimate government interest...

Italics are mine:How many Americans know that the FBI can get a warrant from the secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court('warrant courts' are all private, you cant go watch your local judge issue warrants) and go to a library or bookstore to find out what books you read or borrow if you are somehow, according to the FBI, connected to "terrorism"?Are they not to have the right to investigate? Is this too invasive? Is requiring a warrant from a judge too much to ask?? You know, they can get copies of your power bills like this too...they may know how much energy you use...look out!

Honestly, this is fear-mongering...are you so self-important that you believe the FBI would give a fuck what books you read?? Do you really think that with all of their efforts devoted to halting the next 9/11 scheme in its tracks that they are going to pick up your reading list?? They dont fucking care man...not about you, not about anything but making fucking cases(cases, cases, cases, prosecutable and airtight cases)...and making bad cases is worse than making good cases...because in this case, people die and they fail. And if theres one thing the executive branch hates more than anything, its failure...seriously, this sort of thinking contains within it a touch of paranoid fantasy...that the people who have worked their ass off to occupy a position in Americas most notorious and prestigious police agency arent actually concerned about doing their job but are looking, instead, to find out what you read and then to fabricate terrorist ties or so misconstrue the evidence that they may legally revoke your citizenship and then lock you up...having a giggle about it over a drink...insane. Absolutely insane...

This is not a new 'violation' of your rights...this is not step one to the boxcars...this is a lawful agency given the ability to execute its duties by peering into your reading habbits...dont blow it out of proportion...and think when you read, please...the language of this article is so fucking alarmist is makes my bladder twitch...it should be a sign to you too...you know, that its so fucking biased its almost irrelevant as 'journalism'...

Thanks for another opportunity to vent there Simon...see you in irc.

I feel better...already...

Asmodeus
04-13-2003, 09:52 AM
As much as I hate to say it, I agree with 3MTA3- which is rare.

I consider the article alarmist at the minimum.

So they want to check on my reading habits... go ahead. So they may tap my phone if I read a "tagged" book. Go ahead. But I am afraid there won't be any phone sex to keep them interested cause I am a boring kind of person.

It makes me question the people themselves who find this threatening. What are you doing to feel alarmed about?

A Parallel: what is a thief most afaid of? Being robbed.

SimpleSimon
04-14-2003, 06:06 AM
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger.”

— Herman Goering

Uberwonder
04-14-2003, 06:50 AM
Great reply, 3MTA3
Asmodeus is right. I'm not bothered by the article maybe because I don't have a reason to be bothered. I long ago realized that I am not all that important on a global scale and don't do anything that any agency would find any interest in. Even the IRS finds me rather mundane.

SimpleSimon
04-14-2003, 07:05 AM
Originally posted by Asmodeus
......... It makes me question the people themselves who find this threatening. What are you doing to feel alarmed about?

A Parallel: what is a thief most afaid of? Being robbed.

What is a libertarian afraid of? Loss of liberty.

My private life is mine own, except what I choose to share with others. It is not government business, and no government concerned with the "liberation" of the oppressed, would so consider it. No legitimate purpose can be made for invasion of the lives of others by government agents, unless they are actually involved in a criminal investigation - for which purposes more than sufficient tools have been to hand for many years.

No possible legitimate security need can exist for a blanket prohibition upon the disclosure of governmental demands for information. On a case-by-case basis such a need can be met by court gag orders.

Venus
04-14-2003, 07:31 PM
Ok Simon, you're private life is none of the government's business. But what you're saying is that it's none of the government's business that Joe Blow over there is in connection with known terrorist B whose currently hiding in China because his authorities are looking for him too. If the FBI has reason to believe that you, Simon, are connected with a terrorist, I'm all for letting them pull your library records, and they can pull mine too while they're at it if it helps. It's they're job to protect us against certain people. If pulling library records helps them determine who these people are, where they are, and what they're gonna do to hurt us, I have no problem with that.

3MTA3
04-14-2003, 10:16 PM
Since when is quoting a fucking Nazi anything resembling sane?? Im sorry...but no one of sound mind subscribes to their collective views and Mr. Goering, while brilliant for his time, was so unsophisticated and so out of touch with reality that its hard for anyone to take anything he has said seriously in this modern age...honestly...

Oh, and Libertarians are just dumb...throwbacks even...like there isnt sufficient need for a powerful Federal Government? Whatever...Libertarianism fails on even basic social levels...outright drug decriminalization? Right, thats gonna work...how can smart people pick such unrealistic political ideologies as viable options? It makes no sense...

Escape Artist
04-14-2003, 10:30 PM
Dear 3MTA3: You are a raving fagot.

Luv, EA.

PS: Please refer to that thingy called "compare and contrast" for the Nazi thing, and that pesky lil thing called "personal responsibility" for the Libertarian one.

3MTA3
04-15-2003, 06:15 AM
Dear EA: But I have the biggest cock of you all.

Luv, 3M.

PS: Please refer to that thingy called 'reductionism' for the Libertarian thing, and that pesky lil thing called 'temporal relevance' for the Nazi one.

Quoting Goering on the current world climate is like quoting Khomeini...I see no point in it, they were both mad and both out of touch...just because people know their name and they swayed the idiot masses doesent mean anything they say has merit...as a matter of fact, it puts it up to question...

As for Libertarianism...overly ideological and wholly untested political systems are just fucking retarded...Im sorry you dont like whatever it is you have a problem with(Im sure youve got a list)...but blaming all of the nations problems(because we shouldnt look outside our borders according to the Libertarian platform) on the national government and espousing the lame and well defeated concept of states rights(didnt we have a war over this already?) is about as intellectual as communism(not very)...and doomed to the same fate, except this one wont be discarded because it will never be tried...a bad alternative is the same as no alternative...probably worse.

1. You cant instill personal responsibility through (less)legislation, just like you cant instill a work ethic through brutality(ie. USSR)...

2. Stripping the nations social support structure just to teach everyone a tough lesson about 'responsibility' is something a lot of us dont think we need, from you or anyone...

3. And then theres the whole 'vote libertarian' so they can get federal matching funds...isnt that welfare? Self-loathing-freaks!! Get it together or just get out...

SimpleSimon
04-15-2003, 07:24 AM
Originally posted by Venus
Ok Simon, you're private life is none of the government's business. But what you're saying is that it's none of the government's business that Joe Blow over there is in connection with known terrorist B whose currently hiding in China because his authorities are looking for him too. If the FBI has reason to believe that you, Simon, are connected with a terrorist, I'm all for letting them pull your library records, and they can pull mine too while they're at it if it helps. It's they're job to protect us against certain people. If pulling library records helps them determine who these people are, where they are, and what they're gonna do to hurt us, I have no problem with that.

Actually, Venus, what I was and am saying is exactly what I said.

If the FBI or any other legitimate investigative agency of government has reason to believe that I, or anyone else, is connected with a terrorist or a terrorist organization, then they can go to the appropriate court and make application for the appropriate warrants. Random fishing expeditions, such as the recent effort by the FBI to obtain the names and personal information of scuba-diving enthusiasts because "it would be easy for a diver to committ sabotage in the nations ports", constitute nothing more or less than attempts to build a database on speculation. It is invasive, it is intended to be intimidative, and it is wrong.

You see, I think the basic difference in outlook here is simple. You, 3atm3, wonder, and others trust government and ascribe to it good intentions. I do not. I have good cause for that distrust, and virtually no cause for trust based upon historic actions of "law enforcement" agencies in this country.

SimpleSimon
04-15-2003, 07:38 AM
Originally posted by 3MTA3
Since when is quoting a fucking Nazi anything resembling sane??

Sane or not, the quote above is an accurate assessment of a classical tool of governments throughout recorded history, regardless of their ideology.

Im sorry...but no one of sound mind subscribes to their collective views and Mr. Goering, while brilliant for his time, was so unsophisticated and so out of touch with reality that its hard for anyone to take anything he has said seriously in this modern age...honestly...

"No one of sound mind subscribes to these collective views...."

If by that statement you mean fascism as practiced by the Nazi's in Germany, I would in large measure agree. However, this in no slightest way is pertinent to the validity of the quote. As for being in touch with reality, you are seriously mistaken. Being wrong in one or more ways does not invalidate insight in others.

Oh, and Libertarians are just dumb...throwbacks even...like there isnt sufficient need for a powerful Federal Government? Whatever...Libertarianism fails on even basic social levels...outright drug decriminalization? Right, thats gonna work...how can smart people pick such unrealistic political ideologies as viable options? It makes no sense...

Appeals to emotionally loaded labelling proves the validity of your point? I think not. As far as the context of the comment, it was in direct response to Asmo's question/comment. He used a thief in his example - does that make him a thief? I used a libertarian in mine - does that make me a libertarian?

Niether follows directly.

3MTA3
04-15-2003, 08:03 AM
I just like to accuse you and then gloss over it...You see, I think the basic difference in outlook here is simple. You, 3atm3, wonder, and others trust government and ascribe to it good intentions. I do not. I have good cause for that distrust, and virtually no cause for trust based upon historic actions of "law enforcement" agencies in this country.Now that is rational...'why different now?' is the question maybe...

Well, I see most social movements acting out the motion of a pendulum...in my lifetime I was not personally a witness to the police beatings of blacks, crackdowns on peace protesters, basically the entirety of the civil rights movement and the state sponsored violence that seemed to erupt from it...where your distrust of government most likely gathers its most poignant of examples...my worst case is Rodney King, and that does not say much(Waco, Ruby Ridge and the like I feel fall into a different category although they do bear mention)...Miranda rights have been introduced, non-leathal weaponry developed and a new generation(although much like their predicessors in some respects: corruption, blue wall, etc.) has come to the fore, Im sure these arent even 1/100th of the changes from 'yesteryears force'...todays cop is more aware of our civil rights than we are(myself not included: I know everything) because their failure to protect them is a failure in their duty, cops get suspended and fired, justice is meted out against them, an incredible number smoke pot...I hope you can see how there is cause for my perception to differ as my life experience with government obviously has...I just know that things always change.

However, the pendulum is swinging backwards now towards constriction...so I can see where your concern may come from. I just find it unwarranted...

SimpleSimon
04-15-2003, 08:09 AM
Originally posted by 3MTA3
Dear EA: But I have the biggest cock of you all.

Luv, 3M.

PS: Please refer to that thingy called 'reductionism' for the Libertarian thing, and that pesky lil thing called 'temporal relevance' for the Nazi one.

Pray tell, enlighten us on "reductionism" as an analytical tool applied to the core concepts of libertarianism.

"Temporal relevance" as used above is an absurd misapplication of analytical tools in this context. I could have posted that quote from many sources, in very slightly varying terms, beginning with Cicero. I chose the one I did for a reason - there are many alive today who knew (or knew of) Herr Goering as a living individual. There is your relevance.

Quoting Goering on the current world climate is like quoting Khomeini...I see no point in it, they were both mad and both out of touch...just because people know their name and they swayed the idiot masses doesent mean anything they say has merit...as a matter of fact, it puts it up to question...

Again, the validity of the truth contained in a statement can be evaluated seperate from it's source. It is a concept called "intellectual distance" - are you familiar with it?

As for Libertarianism...overly ideological and wholly untested political systems are just fucking retarded...

I am sure these sentiments, if perhaps couched in politer terms) were expressed repeatedly throughout Europe during the American revolution and even more so immediately following the meetings of the constitutional assembly that resulted in our constitution. Were they correct? We still don't know the full answer to that, now do we?

Im sorry you dont like whatever it is you have a problem with(Im sure youve got a list)...but blaming all of the nations problems(because we shouldnt look outside our borders according to the Libertarian platform) on the national government and espousing the lame and well defeated concept of states rights(didnt we have a war over this already?) is about as intellectual as communism(not very)...and doomed to the same fate, except this one wont be discarded because it will never be tried...a bad alternative is the same as no alternative...probably worse.

Indeed, I have a list. Another thread, perhaps.

I do not blame the nations problems on the national government exclusively, or even primarily. As to states rights, the only one bringing that up is you. Pet peeve, perhaps?

As to your claim that the concept won't be discarded because it will never be tried...you may be correct. Only time will tell.

1. You cant instill personal responsibility through (less)legislation, just like you cant instill a work ethic through brutality(ie. USSR)...

Nor can you teach or instill personal responsibility through legislation. The same is true of a work ethis. So?

2. Stripping the nations social support structure just to teach everyone a tough lesson about 'responsibility' is something a lot of us dont think we need, from you or anyone...

Climb down off the soapbox, big boy. Only one talking about these issues is you.

3. And then theres the whole 'vote libertarian' so they can get federal matching funds...isnt that welfare? Self-loathing-freaks!! Get it together or just get out...

And there you have it, folks. Think as instructed, or get out. Well said, 3m, well said!

3MTA3
04-15-2003, 09:21 AM
You do it cause I said it!