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Cruise Director
05-02-2002, 06:02 PM
In the news of Utah, we have THIS (http://www.standard.net/standard/news/news_story.html?sid=00020501231027632369+cat=news+template=news1.html) as a top headline this week.

BRIGHAM CITY -- Police and neighbors hope an incident where a 4-year-old boy brandished his father's police-issue handgun and shot toward a crowd of children will serve as a reminder for gun owners to properly secure their weapons.

No one was seriously injured in the incident, but neighbors are questioning how the boy was allowed access to the gun.



It was supposed to be a happy time of kids playing at a small neighborhood day care Tuesday afternoon. But it turned into a confusing and terrifying moment for four young children.

The children, including one 5-year-old and three 6-year-olds, were playing in Cheryl Thomson"s back yard in the 100 South block of 400 East when a 4-year-old neighbor boy came over to play.

The other children told the boy he had to get permission from his parents to play and said he should let Thomson know he was in the yard. But the childish argument turned into a yelling match.

"I was in the basement (of the house) when I heard (the 4-year-old boy) yelling at the kids and could tell he was very angry," Thomson said. "Later on I heard this big bang -- a big crack -- and then this little boy started crying. At first I thought a tree had broken and fallen on him, but then I knew it wasn"t that. As I was running back upstairs to get outside, he was running away."

The boy, who is the son of Box Elder County Sheriff"s Deputy Todd Jensen, then went back to his home. Brigham City Police Lt. Michael Nelsen said the boy took his father"s .40-caliber Sig Sauer police-issue handgun from the closet, then went back to the house where the children were and fired one shot.

Police are not sure if the bullet was fired into the air or deep into the ground. Investigators seized the gun Wednesday afternoon, and it is being analyzed to see if it fires properly.

Nelsen said preliminary information from the investigation has been forwarded to the Brigham City Attorney"s Office for screening.

"I"m sure that charges of some kind may result in this," Nelsen said.

None of the children were injured except for the boy, who Thomson said got hit in the cheek by the gun when it recoiled, although Nelsen was not able to confirm that.

"We could tell where (the boy) was standing because his shoes were lying on the ground, and the gun was right next to it," Thomson said.

Thomson said shortly after the incident, an upset Jensen came to her house with his son, wondering what had happened. He apparently didn"t realize his gun was missing, and he was stunned when Thomson pointed to the firearm laying next to the boy"s shoes, she said.

Lynn Yeates, Box Elder County Sheriff"s chief deputy, said Jensen was on his normal days-off shift rotation and was not scheduled to be back to work until today. If the Brigham City Police Department"s investigation is not completed by today, Yeates said Jensen would be placed on paid administrative leave.

The sheriff"s department is also conducting a parallel but separate investigation into the incident. Yeates said the department"s policy on handling weapons off-duty is one of a "common-sense policy." That means keeping it secure and away from being easily accessed by others, he said.

"We are all glad no one got hurt," Yeates said. "This is a lesson for everyone to keep your firearms secure and away from children."

Jason Jensen, whose daughter was one of the children at Thomson"s home, said he is disappointed that a law enforcement officer"s child didn"t have adequate training from his parents on the danger of guns.

Jason Jensen, who said he is not related to Todd Jensen, said he owns several guns and has taught all three of his children they are not to touch any of the guns without permission and close supervision of a parent.

"As Joe Schmo right off the streets, I know that I"m not to keep my guns and my ammunition together in the same place and never have the gun loaded," Jason Jensen said.

Added Thomson: "I"m not a vengeful person, and I know that that family is going through enough right now. But I want to have my security back, and I want to be assured that steps will be taken that something like this will never happen again."

I've got my own thoughts on this but would be interested to hear yours. How do you punish and teach the 4 year old? How do you approach the situation of the boy's parents? Should it matter that the man is a Police Officer?

Disturbing.

Dog Breath
05-02-2002, 07:46 PM
The parents should be responsible for disciplining the child unless the DA can prove the child knew what he was doing. At 4 years old I doubt the child could be held responsible.

Federal law states if a child gets access to a firearm and commits a crime, the owner of the firearm is liable. The officer could be charged with:

Felony child endangerment
Failure to secure the firearm resulting in a crime
Contributing to the delinquency of a minor

It is a personal matter except the fact the weapon might be issued by his employer in which case if the law enforcement agency has policy pertaining to the storage of service weapons he could be subject to punishment at work.

The officer was clearly neglectful in failing to secure the weapon. The child was trying to show his displeasure and obviously needs some help there.

MAC
05-03-2002, 05:29 AM
" "I'm sure that charges of some kind may result in this," Nelsen said. "

Oh yeah
well find sumthin for you
maybe we need new laws to cover this

I agree with DB as far as responsibilty goes.

They made it accessible and something bad happened.
Who's fault is it?
Mom and Dad...no doubt.

Now my big problem with this.
Little boys are little boys
and toys are toys
guns are cooler toys than anything else when you're alittle boy
all you liberals are here by warned NOT to confuse this with anything else.

Given a room full of toys and a gun the kids find the gun everytime.

Room full of toys and a pair of real binoculars?
Room full of toys and a large glass bottle?
Room full of toys and a bowling ball?
Room full of toys and a hammer?
Room full of toys and a knife?

Sorry, I was a kid and REAL things are much more fun than toys.
they feel different
they look different
they are cool

give your daughter the choice between her toy make up and mommy's real make up.......

Princess_Heather
05-03-2002, 07:16 AM
*shakes head*

Mormons...

Cruise Director
05-03-2002, 08:35 AM
Originally posted by Princess_Heather
*shakes head*

Mormons...

I dare say that is the funniest thing you've ever said! :D

I understand the responsibility and the punishment that is surely going to happen. I'm just haveing a hard time fathoming a police officer....trained in proper firearm storage, would leave a loaded pistol within the grasp of a 4 year old. Guess cops are human, too.

Torque
05-04-2002, 01:26 AM
Originally posted by Cruise Director


I'm just haveing a hard time fathoming a police officer....trained in proper firearm storage, would leave a loaded pistol within the grasp of a 4 year old. Guess cops are human, too.

Except Robocop. He's only a little bit human.

Got to keep the guns put up.
You got money for guns, you can pony up for a gun safe first. And use the damn thing.

MuffyTheVampyreLayer
05-04-2002, 01:36 AM
Yeah, I was having a hard time stomaching the fact that a police officers kid could get his gun - you would think with the ammount of times police officers have to lecture other people about gun safety, they would be a little more careful themselves.

I think he should be fired. :) Sound harsh? Who cares. I think he should also be tried. If a jury wants him punished then he should be. (No one died so his 'sentence' would probably only be a fine) - But given that police officers are under a higher duty of care when it comes to matters like this, it should be acknowleged.

Cruise Director
05-07-2002, 08:50 AM
May 6, 2002:

BRIGHAM CITY -- The city attorney has filed two misdemeanor charges against the Box Elder County sheriff"s deputy whose 4-year-old son fired a gun into a group of children last week.

Deputy Todd Jensen is charged with class A misdemeanor reckless endangerment and class C misdemeanor child abuse stemming from the April 30 incident.

The 4-year-old fired one round from his father"s service weapon into a group of children he had been arguing with in a neighbor"s back yard. None of the children were injured except for the boy, who was hit on the cheek from the recoil of the gun.

Brigham City Police Lt. Michael Nelsen served Jensen Monday afternoon with a summons to appear in city court May 13 to answer the charges. In the meantime, the deputy has been placed on administrative suspension pending the outcome of the court proceedings, said Box Elder County Sheriff"s Chief Deputy Lynn Yeates.

"He is not allowed to participate in any law enforcement activities until this is resolved," Yeates said. Employed by the sheriff"s department since 1991, Jensen will still be on the department"s payroll because "he hasn"t been found guilty yet."

Nelsen said he wanted to make it clear that the child abuse charge in no way indicates the 34-year-old deputy had been abusing his 4-year-old son. He said the state statute says that since the boy was in the custody of his father, and that the boy was injured, it constitutes child abuse.

"Most people hear the words child abuse and they start thinking all types of things," Nelsen said. "There was no physical abuse; none whatsoever."

The reckless endangerment charge comes from the allegation that Jensen"s .40-caliber service weapon was so easily accessible to the boy. Nelsen said the child was able to get the loaded gun out of his father"s closet.

Jensen could face a maximum of one year in jail if found guilty of both charges.

Smug Git
05-07-2002, 11:46 AM
I was speaking to a gun owner about this sort of thing and he made the point that a gun safe is not the best place to have a gun if you might suddenly need it to defend yourself.

If you can get hold of the gun in a hurry, the kid might be able to as well.

What is the 'official/approved' way to have a firearm ready for immediate use and at the same time make it impossible for the kid to get hold of it? I am sure that there is one, but it is not something that is necessary under UK law, obviously.

SatansLeftHand
05-07-2002, 02:09 PM
i'd say duct tape a holster to the ceiling, but not everyone is as tall as me.

Torque
05-07-2002, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by Smug Git
What is the 'official/approved' way to have a firearm ready for immediate use and at the same time make it impossible for the kid to get hold of it? I am sure that there is one, but it is not something that is necessary under UK law, obviously.

Hou can use a fingertip combination box
Example (http://www.nokey.com/amdiggunbox.html)

Or a similar setup.

You could try keeping it out of reach, but I dont find that to be terribly safe, kids climb, stand on things.

I have a gun safe in the house, and a 2 year old, and a baby. I would much rather take the 30 seconds to one minute it would take for me to get a weapon out of the safe, than spend a lifetime mourning one of my kids.

If you need to have a loaded weapon within arms reach at any time, maybe it's time to rethink where you are raising your kids.

By the way, my kids have no idea the safe, or guns exist to my knowledge. We can talk about that soon.

I know some folks that have it in their heads that guns should be accessible anywhere, and they feel that there should be no excuses for not being armed whenever. I think these are the sort of people that are going to end up shooting a family member in the dark one night.

SatansLeftHand
05-07-2002, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by SatansLeftHand
i'd say duct tape a holster to the ceiling, but not everyone is as tall as me.
looking at torque's post, he made a good point about the climbing and stuff. i would duct tape it to the ceiling above the fan. not many children will drag a chair into the middle of the room, climb it, and then stick their hand through a spinning fan.
i, on the other hand, would just reach and grab.
fans are no defense against the likes of me!

Cruise Director
05-07-2002, 05:03 PM
This is the unit I personally own. (http://www.gunvault.com/multi_vault.html) It mounts under my bed and is extremely "handy."

Cruise Director
05-14-2002, 05:51 AM
In case any of you were wondering about this case:

BRIGHAM CITY -- After Deputy Todd Jensen pleaded innocent to charges related to his 4-year-old son allegedly firing the officer"s service weapon at a group of children, his defense attorney lashed out at the handling of the case.

"This is a political year and a political filing, said Kent Snider, an Ogden defense attorney and former police officer. "If this is reckless endangerment, then there are hundreds of officers every day who are in violation when they go home and secure their firearm in their closet.

"Based on eight years as a cop, I know hundreds of officers and the majority do not lock up their guns."

Snider also said Jensen"s employer, the Box Elder County Sheriff"s Office, does not mandate officers lock away their guns at home. "He was in complete compliance with departmental policy."

Jensen, 34, an 11-year veteran with the sheriff"s office, is charged with class A misdemeanor reckless endangerment and class C misdemeanor child abuse stemming from the April 30 incident in Brigham.

His arraignment before 1st District Judge Ben Hadfield Monday went routinely with little comment. A pre-trial conference was set for June 10. Jensen is on paid suspension pending resolution of the case.

The 4-year-old reportedly fired one round from his father"s handgun into a group of children he had been arguing with in a neighbor"s back yard. No one was injured except for the boy, who suffered a bruised cheek. Snider said the boy was hit by the casing being ejected from the .40 caliber handgun.

After Monday"s hearing, City Attorney Steve Hadfield wouldn"t comment on how the boy got to his father"s gun, or other details of the case. He did offer that the boy did not load the gun himself.

Hadfield said the child abuse charge lists the 4-year-old as the victim stemming from the "bump to the head" while the reckless endangerment charge lists as victims the children allegedly shot at.

"He (Jensen) is afraid of losing his job and the city has to do something," Hadfield said. "It"s a rock and a hard place."

Snider claimed that both charges against his client basically derive from the alleged negligence by Jensen in storing his weapon, not from its actual discharge.

He said the weapon had been stored seven feet or more off the ground. "The boy climbed up a stool, climbed on a shelf in a closet to get to the case where the gun was stored," Snider said.

As to where the child learned to shoot, he said, "Maybe the media.

"The only training he had from his father was no different than all Dads do, which is "Don"t touch my guns.""

Snider ridiculed the child abuse charge. "A shell casing bumps his cheek and that"s child abuse," he said, noting there was a case in the county in the past where a child got into his law enforcement father"s guns and accidentally shot and injured a playmate and no charges were fired.

"There are a lot of people upset about this and that"s why I call it a political filing," he said. "I am also worried about the negative publicity around the incident, the knee-jerk response that may affect his chances for a fair trial."

Mr. Snrub
05-14-2002, 06:52 AM
"Based on eight years as a cop, I know hundreds of officers and the majority do not lock up their guns."

in that case, the majority should have their asses kicked.

I want to know how a 4 year old could be so unsupervised he could actually pull off that stunt.

And how in the hell did he get the safety off?

MAC
05-14-2002, 12:35 PM
Ok, reality time form the gunowners perspective.

80+% of cops are fuckin paranoid sociopaths

police duty pistols and revolvers are almost exclusively double action.
you squeeze the trigger they shoot.
only the newest revolvers have any type of safety.
the pistols use a simple button

gun safety in homes:
a locked up firearm of any kind is USELESS
most firearms owners own multiple firearms

so you have to play the numbers
you ahve a child in your home?
you unload & lock up all but the one you are going to use for security. (thats ammunition AND firearms)
Don't hide them around the house.
Then you take the 1 you intend to use for security and you decide where to put it to make it accessable when you need it.
Now comes the judgement part.
When do you need it?
Night time?
Put it there at night and keep it locked up the rest of the time.

My personal opinon form extensive reading and the few folks I know ho have had to use a firearm for defense.
Unless its on your hip, you either have time to get it or you don't.
meaning either, you hear the intruder and have time to retrieve a firearm from somewhere or you have NO time at all.

If you are TRUELY worried about burglars...get a dog and a fenced in yard around your house.

Course most people would get some big mean fucking dog who then bites their small child.

Cause they ain't smart enough to put away their gun each day.

I willadd this final comment.
if you own firearms, shoot them.
take your children and let them see you shoot them.
make damned sure they understand about them
my 4 year old did just fine.
I kept them all up out of her way
I made sure she wasn't unsupervised around anythign she could get hurt with
and I changed where I stored them as she grew and became more "into" things.
And at 4 she I assisted her in shooting the BB gun.
Its something real to her, and under my supervision she is allowed to shoot.
Without my supervision she may not touch any firearm or she won't get to shoot anymore.

see how that works?