No one is exactly who he seems.

[jules]

This morning, a close friend of mine told me that he's gay.

I was overwhelmed. I still am. I'm not sure what's what anymore.

He used to be my stepbrother... I lived with the guy for four years. I never once suspected anything of the sort. He's Jordan... Jordan, stealing his dad's Playboys, Jordan, hitting on girls at the mall... Jordan, who's always had a girlfriend.

Apparently, he's known since he was about eight that he's attracted to males and not females (he's 14 now). He said he's never really felt anything for a girl other than strong friendship; but has had relationships anyways to avoid being called gay. He's been depressed for as long as I've known him; he says now that it's from keeping this in for so long.

I haven't been able to look at anyone the same today... I'm overly suspicious of every circumstance, almost paranoid. I feel like I don't know who anyone really is anymore, and the scary part is that I probably don't. It's not upsetting to me that he's gay; but rather that I hadn't the slightest idea so until this morning.

I lived with him for four freaking years. We were best friends, did everything together. I just don't see how it could be possible that he is and that I didn't know. I'm scared; afraid of what he'll have to go through for being who he is, afraid of watching him be hurt, afraid (and selfishly so) of being taunted myself for standing up for him. I'm confused; and I'm, on some level, hurt that he didn't tell me sooner.

I'm not sure what to do with myself other than be supportive and junk.

It really goes to show that no one can be exactly how he or she seems.

I think I'll go sit in the rain and chill for a while.

[morgana]

<font color="lime">i really hope you don't take this the wrong way...

would you feel the same way if your best friend told you that he/she liked to be tied up during sex?

how about if they said that they find leather whips a turn on?

what about if they liked whipped cream being spooned on their buttocks and lovingly licked off?


i use these as examples of sexual fetishes. almost everyone has them, and they're very intimate parts of ourselves. we usually don't go around advertising what we like in bed, unless your fetish is for sexual attention. so when someone tells you that they like whipped cream, do you feel betrayed?

why not?

maybe because what they do in the bedroom is their business?

you really have no right to feel betrayed. sexuality is a part of who we are, something we can't really change about ourselves. you said that he is 14. do you honestly think that he's known since he was 8 that he was gay? think about how life was for you at that age. the raw emotions that coursed through you on a daily basis. at 8, he was playing with tonka trucks. he's just now getting around to exploring that part of himself.

and he told you at 14. do you know how many people stay in the closet until they're 18, 25, 30? how many never tell their families at all?

you should feel honoured to hold such a trust. stop feeling so selfish about this and simply be there for him. he faces a world full of distrust ahead of him. he doesn't need it from you too.</font>

[Escape Artist]

Damn, Morg. Easy there, k?

It, put simply, is betrayal in some sense. The resulting feelings are understandable. Bad analogy, but I'll use it:

If your boyfriend walked up some day and said "I've been cheating on you with [so and so], I don't think you'd be able to shrug and walk away 100% free of worry, doubt and fear. Even you're human. What if the other person was a great friend of yours?

Something similar has happened to Jul here; someone she had implicit trust in has completely fucked around her view of him. She is now in a position of being forced to adapt and attempt to understand what is now a completely different person.

The news that he's gay is only one small part. It's everything else with the larger effect.

[morgana]

<font color="lime">how is he different? because he is gay?

how does that make him a different person from yesterday?

he's always been gay; just because you didn't know it doesn't mean that he's now suddenly something else.

and again: he's only 14. he's just now discovering these kinds of feelings. puberty plays some finely tuned music on your emotional strings. encourage him to grow into himself.

if you're such close friends, he's going to be able to tell that you look at him differently, and he'll take it to mean that you don't condone his choice of sexuality. and it takes alot of strength for a young man to come forward and tell anyone that he's gay at that age. i can't even imagine how scared he is of the world right now.

and you're worried about getting teased for being his friend.

</font>

[morgana]

<font color="lime">EA: cheating is in no way, shape or form anywhere near the same as a platonic friend telling you that they are gay.

very, very bad analogy. there is no betrayal here. how can there be? he never told her he was straight. he never promised her anything about his sexuality.

who he takes to bed is none of her business. she is his friend, not his wife.

at the age of 8, he started realizing that he preferred boys to girls. what boy at the age of 8 wanted to play with girls anyway? girls were yucky and gross. so, as he gets older, the feelings get more pronounced. he has girlfriends, to see what the experience is like. he doesn't like it, so he decides he's gay, and he tells his best friend. how is that a betrayal? because he didn't give her a play by play of how he felt about them? because he waited to see if it was truly what he thought it was?

i'm sorry if this sounds harsh. but i just can't believe how narrowminded you guys are about homosexuality.

</font>

[Escape Artist]

So you're basically saying "Don't be yourself, but encourage him for doing it?"

Bad juju.

[Escape Artist]

I'm not narrowminded. My ex told me about a month after I broke up with her that she was bisexual.

Her friend is gay as well.

Fine by me, as I like them regardless of their sexual preferences.

It's not the fact that he's gay that bothers me, or even that he told Jul.

It's simply that what he seems different now, irrevocably so, and emotionally it shows. Logic doesn't play a big part here, I'm afraid. And, frankly, to the uninitated in hearing this from someone else, it's a big shock. You don't expect this and while logic says "live and let live" everything else says "WHAT THE FUCK?!"

My two cents, disregard as ya wish.

[Kayla]

I think what juliana is trying to say is that she just feels betrayed because she was "lied" to. Juliana, i dont think you were lied to per se. Your friend obviously was scared abotu coming out, at that age its hard (incredibly) to do something like that when school is full of assholes yellling "faggot" at everything that walks.

This has nothing to do w/ his sexuality. It has to do w/ the fact that she feels lied to. A friend of mine also told me recently that he was gay. I never once thought that he could be gay. But sure enough, he is. At first i was hurt becuase he never told me, he never trusted me enough to tell me. or at least thats how i felt. I realize now that he couldnt trust anyone w/ it.
He wasn't sure of what he was feeling and he was scared that people wouldnt feel the same way about him if he let out the truth.
Maybe thats what jordan is feeling/felt. Maybe he felt that if he told you you would feel differently. And here you are, feeling differently. Understand that was he's going thru is a pretty big fucking deal and its pretty selfish of you to think about yourself at a time like this. He needs you. Be there for him, worry about everything else later.


this has been an incoherent post from Kayla

[morgana]

Originally posted by Escape Artist
So you're basically saying "Don't be yourself, but encourage him for doing it?"

Bad juju.

<font color="lime">if being yourself means that you can only stick by your friends when it's comfortable for you to do so, then maybe she should do him the favor of parting ways.</font>


I'm not narrowminded. My ex told me about a month after I broke up with her that she was bisexual.

Her friend is gay as well.


<font color="lime"> that's like saying you're not racist because you know black people.</font>

It's simply that what he seems different now, irrevocably so, and emotionally it shows.

<font color="lime">besides him being gay, what is different?

that's what i would like to know.

of course emotionally, he is changing. teenagers do that. they grow into themselves. they find that they like doing this or that. they find that they don't like this activity anymore. they take up causes, or drop them. they fight with their parents and their friends to try and make themselves feel more individual. yes, teenagers change.

but to say that he is betraying you because he is gay is still outrageous, and i'd like to get to the bottom of why you feel that it is a betrayal.
</font>

[Escape Artist]

Originally posted by morgana


<font color="lime">if being yourself means that you can only stick by your friends when it's comfortable for you to do so, then maybe she should do him the favor of parting ways.</font>

It seems what you advocate is basically ignoring everything she's feeling, but accepting his. Comes across as one-sided to me. I believe in equality...he should accept her reaction considering she's accepting his new perspective. Fair enough, no?

<font color="lime"> that's like saying you're not racist because you know black people.</font>

You took that one wrong. My point is this: being gay, different skin color than me, etc is fine. I don't care. Now, if you're an arrogant Pakistani homosexual and that rubs me the wrong way, then I will hate you for being arrogant. Not necessarily the latter two aspects, though.


<font color="lime">besides him being gay, what is different?

but to say that he is betraying you because he is gay is still outrageous, and i'd like to get to the bottom of why you feel that it is a betrayal.
</font>

I see it more as a betrayal in that he left Jul with many, many misconceptions. Don't get me wrong with this statement. I'm talking more about how living a life you don't believe in affects other people's perspectives of you. Finding out something you believed to be truth is fake....shit, not an easy thing to cope with.
She trusted him, and said trust was for something that wasn't real--who he really was as a person.

[jules]

Hrm...

I don't feel betrayed, or like I was lied to. I realize that telling me was his decision to make when he wanted to make it; I respect and understand that. I probably wouldn't tell anyone for a long time, either; that's the way I am.

The only part of that that made me feel slightly hurt was that he had told other people before letting me know. I don't know whether he didn't trust me enough to let me know a while ago; I guess that was the case, he must have had his reasons for feeling so.

I'm not close-minded about homosexuality; if that's the way someone is, then that's none of my business to deem "good" or "bad", but regardless, it IS "different".

It's like if a male friend told me that he was really female, in a sense. It'd be the same person, but all of a sudden, instead of him hitting on girls and me watching, he's telling me that the guys I'm looking at are "hot". It's different, and it's weird. That's all I'm saying.

Jordan has always been friends with girls; even when he was little. He didn't get along well with males. I suppose, viewing it that way, he was comparable to girls more than to guys. I don't know.

Anyways, the two main issues I'm trying to address in the above are 1) that it's not his homosexuality that bugs me, but rather that all of a sudden he's "different", and 2) I don't feel betrayed (that came up a lot).

[morgana]

<font color="lime">i think that i'm confusing my point with other stuff, so i'll just try this one last time.

why does it matter if he is gay? why?

i don't understand why finding out someone is gay is such a life shattering event.

if he were to suddenly find out that his long lost father was black, and that made him half black, would that also be considered a betrayal?

if one of my friends came up to me and said "i'm gay. i know that i've dated girls, but it's just not what i want." i would say ok, and ask them what they're doing tonight, or what was on tv.

it's not a big deal. to most reasonable people anyway. which is why i'm not understanding this.

she's turning into some huge earth shattering event. it's not. he's gay. he's also 14. and a boy. those are all facts of life, that can't be changed. he never "faked" anything. he explored dating girls to see if that was what he wanted. whoopity doo.

i could feel sympathy for her if she was going through some terrible event. but this- this is nothing.

</font>

[Rabble Rouser]

To juliana:

Your reaction to this is probably the exact reason why he didn't come out sooner. You sound to me to be somebody who really has issues with gay people, and the fact that he told you of all people is something that took a tremendous amount of courage. He has bared his soul to you, and you're upset because he didn't do it from day one? Does he know every one of your darkest secrets? Just because you're best friends with a person does not give you the right to have to know every little thing about them. Hell, I've known my best friend for almost 10 years, and there's lots of stuff about her that I'm sure I don't know. Some things just aren't my business, you know?

Being gay is now considered the worst prejudice in our society today, and coming out requires a tremendous amount of courage and trust in the people around you. I have no clue why you feel any sense of betrayal. If he was romantically involved with you, then I could understand, but you guys were just friends.

I know my reply seems harsh, and I agree with everything morgana has said as well. It's pretty sad that he trusted you with such sensitive information and you have to twist it around and act like you've been horribly betrayed. It's sad that you made his worst fear a reality.

[Asmodeus]

Originally posted by morgana
<font color="lime"> what boy at the age of 8 wanted to play with girls anyway? girls were yucky and gross. </font>

*me raises hand* I know this one. Me. So I matured a bit early. So what. Even at that age some of the girls in my class would give me a hardon when they bent over, etc. I didn't entirely understand it, save for knowing that when the boys bent over it just wasn't quit the same; only the girls. :D It took me a few months to figure out the art of masturbation as well.

And who says 8 year olds don't learn "needful and necessary things"?

[Kayla]

Originally posted by Rabble Rouser
To juliana:

Your reaction to this is probably the exact reason why he didn't come out sooner. You sound to me to be somebody who really has issues with gay people, and the fact that he told you of all people is something that took a tremendous amount of courage. He has bared his soul to you, and you're upset because he didn't do it from day one? Does he know every one of your darkest secrets? Just because you're best friends with a person does not give you the right to have to know every little thing about them. Hell, I've known my best friend for almost 10 years, and there's lots of stuff about her that I'm sure I don't know. Some things just aren't my business, you know?

Being gay is now considered the worst prejudice in our society today, and coming out requires a tremendous amount of courage and trust in the people around you. I have no clue why you feel any sense of betrayal. If he was romantically involved with you, then I could understand, but you guys were just friends.

I know my reply seems harsh, and I agree with everything morgana has said as well. It's pretty sad that he trusted you with such sensitive information and you have to twist it around and act like you've been horribly betrayed. It's sad that you made his worst fear a reality.

insanity! i agree with rabble! :P
hehe

[Mudflap]

Shifting gears from the whole "let's judge Juliana for being honest about her feelings" trend:

Can a 14 year old boy know beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is really gay? I faintly remember something from my psych 101 class of many years ago that it is natural for boys going thru puberty to have a "gay phase" where men hold much more of their interest than women. The phase passess and the wonder and beauty of the female form becomes apparent and they develop into hardcore heterosexuals. Can anyone else add to that?

Rabble, I believe this is your area of study. Psych was just an elective for me.

[Rabble Rouser]

Originally posted by Mudflap
Shifting gears from the whole "let's judge Juliana for being honest about her feelings" trend:

Can a 14 year old boy know beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is really gay? I faintly remember something from my psych 101 class of many years ago that it is natural for boys going thru puberty to have a "gay phase" where men hold much more of their interest than women. The phase passess and the wonder and beauty of the female form becomes apparent and they develop into hardcore heterosexuals. Can anyone else add to that?

Rabble, I believe this is your area of study. Psych was just an elective for me.

I've never read anything about this "gay phase." While it is true that during adolescence, boys begin to think about sexuality more (whether or not they're open about it is a different story), most do not go through a gay stage. Many may have fantasies about being with someone of the same sex, but they're just that...fantasies. Most never intend to actually act on them...they're just exploring other angles, I suppose. Puberty is usually where gay people confirm their preferences because sexual arousal is such a big issue in adolescence. They know what gets them off, and puberty pretty much confirms that.

[MAC]

1) I don't know this boy or his character, but I have a hard time associating 14 with gay.
Sorry,
45 and left his wife and kids to have sex with another man = gay.
14 and has felt bad for a while does not necessarily = gay
14 and feels more comfortable around guys, notices male physiological attributes more, and connects better with guys on a personal level does not necessarily = gay

2) He has stuck his neck out here and said he is gay.
All the discussion in the world means crap to him now.
He looked both ways (hopefully) then crossed the street.
Gay now means "I am gay"
Feel free to start a nice long debate on psycological/physiological homosexuality.
Everyone has examples from both sides of the coin.

3) I personally believe its a choice.
From my scientific perspective I believe its a reaction to environmental pressures.
From my masculine perspective I think its a cop-out.
From my human side of it I believe it doesn't make a wit of difference as I am NOT gay.

4) If he ever asks me to tolerate him I'll punch him in his mouth...gay or not
Tolerance is a bastardised word, destroyed by people who abused it to get what they wanted.
You want to be gay?
Be gay.
Don't ask me to change my opinion/life so that its friendly to gays.
I want tolerance in politics.
They should all have to accept my way of thinking and my choice of lifestyle as an acceptable alternative to theirs.
Hear me Al Gore?
Tolerate me!
a republic with a small decentralised gov't and NO fed income tax.
Tolerate me!

Christians should tolerate me too.
They can stop believing that because I don't accept christ and their verbatum version of the "way it is" that I'm gonna die and go to hell.

Think they'll tolerate me?
No...they won't.

Should they be allowed to kill me or enslave me or inprison me because of what I believe?
No.

Do they have to hire me or do business with me?
No.

My life, my choice.

right?

[Koliedrus]

I think I get the picture. It's not about sexual preference but the perception of an individual. She thought she knew his character after four years and then suddenly he's something else. More accurately, he hid what he was behind a front. Most likely he questioned himself the entire time.

"Um, Jul?"
"Yeah?"
"I'm actually an android."
(shock)
*Jul looks again and realizes that he's still Jordan*

He's still Jordan. Remember that. Now you just have a better understanding of what makes him tick.

[hardcoredana]

Originally posted by Koliedrus
I think I get the picture. It's not about sexual preference but the perception of an individual. She thought she knew his character after four years and then suddenly he's something else.

Bingo!

Juliana is not a homophobe. She has not expressed the sense of betrayal that many of you are accusing her of. She has merely expressed shock at the fact that she thought she knew someone, but she really didn't. Her shock is natural and acceptable, so stop trying to psycho-analyze her or make her out to be a homophobic monster. Sheesh.

Jules: Here is a passage from A Tale of Two Cities that reminds me of your situation.

A wonderful fact to reflect upon, that every human creature is constituted to be that profound secret and mystery to every other. A solemn consideration, when I enter a great city by night, that every one of those darkly clustered houses encloses its own secret; that every room in every one of them encloses its own secrets; that every beating heart in the hundreds of thousands of thousands of breasts there, is, in some of its imaginings, a secret to the heart nearest it! Something of the awfulness, even of Death itself, is referable to this. No more can I turn the leaves of dear book that I loved, and vainly hope in time to read it all. No more can I look into the depths of this unfathomable water, wherein, as momentary lights glanced into it, I have had glimpses of buried treasure and other things submerged. It was appointed that the book should shut with a spring, for ever and ever, when I had read but a page. It was appointed that the water should be locked in an eternal frost, when the light was playing on its surface, and I stood in ignorance on the shore. My friend is dead, my neighbor is dead, my love, the darling of my soul, is dead; it is the inexorable consolidation and perpetuation of the secret that was always in that individuality, and which I shall carry in mine to my life's end. In any of the burial-places of this city through which I pass, is there a sleeper more inscrutable than its busy inhabitants are, in their innermost personality, to me, or than I am to them?