Rich girls

[squee]

I've never been in the same circles as the wealthy--but I've been around them a lot in various jobs that I've done (horse stables, golf caddy, waiting tables, etc.) So I've never dated any rich girls before. But, all of a sudden, I am. She escaped an arranged marraige by joining the service. Still has beucoup bennies flowing from her family.

Here are some observations that I have:
A lot of the stereotypes are true in the way she acts, her expectations, etc. One of the reasons she's glommed onto me is that I know how to act like a gentleman--I say act because I am not a gentleman in the sense that she knows. I have no breeding, I'm from a middle-class family, and so on and so forth. She expects the doors to be opened, she expects me to hold her arm everywhere we walk. I'm fine with that and it's actually a breath of fresh air when compared with the usual women I have to deal with in the Navy. I can take her riding horses, to the theater, a symphony, all the upper-crust things I like to play at that I can't do with the girls around here. This part is fine.

Here's what's bothering me though: I can't figure out why she wants to be treated like a dirty slut in bed. I'm usually pretty slow, gentle, & considerate, but she is completely rejecting this. She's not rejecting me--she's giving me the green light in some pretty obvious ways--but she expects me to act differently than I'm accustomed to. And, you all know how my brain works by now--I'm trying to analyze this behavior.

Wanting to get treated like dirt means you think you deserve to get treated like dirt. I don't think I can have any kind of positive relationship on that level. So, I'm going to withhold the wang. This ought to be interesting because she claims that she "always gets what she wants", which is also a pretty stereotypical rich girl thing to say. Could mean interesting times...I am looking for any advice you all might have...

[Princess_Heather]

I don't think that how she wants to be treated in bed has anything to do with her financial status. I think it's a personal preference, deeper than income. She probably has some esteem issues stemming from the expectations she grew up with from her parents.

[MuffyTheVampyreLayer]

Fantasy perhaps - the enchanted life of theatre, polo and ballet can be enchanting when viewed from the outside. Inside it can be dead fucking boring. When treated like a princess, fluffed and pampered your entire life, sometimes you just want to get down and dirty, because its something you have been missing. I have read that this can be because of feeling like an outsider due to your social position, you crave the part of society that is unfamiliar to you. But that could be complete crap.

I think the important thing is whether or not you like, or at least can tolerate, treating her like a slut in bed.

[Dingle]

Originally posted by MuffyTheVampyreLayer

I think the important thing is whether or not you like, or at least can tolerate, treating her like a slut in bed.

and if you can't, send her my way. and make sure she brings her credit cards.

[Goatboy]

I have honestly never met a woman that didn't want to be treated like a whore in bed.

I hope you are comfortable with it, because if you aren't you will forever be a sexual disappointment.

You're lucky to have found a woman who is at least honest about how she feels (how they all feel).

[squee]

She moves too fast for my tastes, assumes too much, and wants to be demeaned--none of which I'm comfortable with. Plus I think this is all only about her getting back at her ex. Looks like this one is going to get called off in short order. Goatboy, I'm sorry it sounds as if you're not even the master of your own cock--you always let the women set the pace and the tone? So much for masculinity.

[Goatboy]

Perhaps I should refrain from talking man stuff with boys.

[squee]

So, is a willingess to degrade women and yourself to be considered the rule for determining maturity? Maybe you should try that one on theMAC or Koliedrus in Lessons or the Testosteronadome. Or maybe you think that real men are comfortable being led around by the crank by loose women. Ok. If that's true, I'll stay in Never-Neverland, thank you very much.

[TotalAnarchy]

I never mind about what they want. My tastes are pretty flexible (to a point) and so it doesnt bother me.

[Mudflap]

Have this conversation with her.

Then take her to bed and treat her like the dirty little whore that she is. Don't forget to spooge in her eye.

[D_I]

Originally posted by Mudflap
Don't forget to spooge in her eye.

Thats demeaning?

[Billyman]

Squee my man, Muffy kinda hit this one one the head. I think you're reading a little to deep into the whole thing.

Ok, you've got a decent relationship outside the sack. Good deal. She wants to be treated "dirty" in the sack? So be it. It's that bad girl thing she never gets to express because of her background. She always had to set an example, she always had to be "Ms. Proper" if you will. The bedroom is the one place she can be "naughty". There isn't anything wrong with that. You're a calm, nurturing guy, I respect that. But sometimes in your fantasies, I'll bet you're a tiger! This is an oppertunity to unleash that tiger. Open your mind, be what you are a little afraid of becoming. Seriously man, if she wants to be treated like a whore in bed, then do so. You have to learn to let yourself go. Yell those obscenities and demands! Tell her to "take it all bitch" if that's what she wants. Pull her hair, spank her ass and go have some coffee afterwards. You just have to give in to your fantasies and dreams and capitalize on what is before you. I swear to you it will make for an awsome relationship. Fun in and out of bed, what more could you ask for?

[euphorbia]

I think some people just really like their sex raw and full of passion. Surrendering yourself to some one or wanting to be totally ravished is all good imo. I mean, does she want you to call her a whore? Pull her hair? Smack her ass? I’m not sure what you mean by demeaned. Maybe she just wants to let go of everything and be an object of pleasure for a few minutes before returning to the complications of life.

[euphorbia]

Originally posted by squee
Goatboy, I'm sorry it sounds as if you're not even the master of your own cock--you always let the women set the pace and the tone? So much for masculinity.

Goatboy beats me with his erect penis...I love it.

[MuffyTheVampyreLayer]

I don't know whether it is demeaning or not - that depends on the motiviation for it. However, it seems to me that you are not happy with it, so, I don't think there is much point in you pursuing the relationship. Find someone who is comfortable receiving love in a way that you are comfortable expressing it. Its not about letting them set the tone of the relationship - you just won't be happy if you keep that up. Stay true to yourself.

Thats my two cents.

[gone away]

i find the encouragement to change his ways despite his proclaimed reluctance to do so kinda disenchanting

i don't wanna treat girls dirty.. does this mean i'm screwed?

hard times

[MuffyTheVampyreLayer]

I think youre only screwed when you think you should treat girls dirty even though you don't want to. Same applies to women thinking they should perform like whores if they don't want to.

You'll be right GA.

[squee]

Originally posted by Billyman
Fun in and out of bed, what more could you ask for?

For starters, honesty. I have been investigating her past on this base--honestly, some people don't understand how long-lasting their reputations are. So far I have unearthed quite a few young men who have been "used" by this girl. She has already said that she finds my "style" of sex to be boring and that she expects me to perform according to her standards; so what is going to happen, just like she's done three or four times already, is that she's going to get bored with me after a little while and dump me. I don't do that. I don't associate with that. I will not allow myself to be used in that way...I'm sorry, everyone, for not fitting in with the sexual mores of my time.

Due to her dishonesty this is not a good relationship outside the sack--and therefore it's never going to get into the sack. :(

[Billyman]

I understand squee, you should be happy with every total aspect of the relationship. If you really don't feel comfortable with any of it, get out of it. Do what's best for you, and only you know what that is. You're a good guy in need of a a good woman. She's out there waiting for you I'm sure. ;) Happy hunting.

[Mudflap]

How does she know your style of sex0ring is boring if you two haven't done the deed?

I'd bang her and then dump her.

[Cruise Director]

I met and dated a girl for a while that had the whole "Cybil" thing going on in the bedroom. She was a great lady in her everyday life and we really enjoyed our time together. BUT.... in the bedroom was a different story. Seems she was really in to the whole BDSM thing. Kind of freaky. She wanted to really be the S and really wanted me to be the D. Without going in to too many details, let's just say I'm not in to that.

The relationship didn't make it too far when the collar came out.

[Goatboy]

*sprays the gay repellant spray at a whole bunch of you*

(but not at Cruise, dominant women are just dykes in denial)

[squee]

Goatboy, you are an idiot.

[Goatboy]

Squee, your sexual immaturity and naivity regarding male / female relations is a source of tremendous amusment to me.

[Billyman]

Originally posted by Goatboy


(but not at Cruise, dominant women are just dykes in denial)

heh, true dat, true dat.

[MrsKol]

Hey there,

Well, it looks I agree with Muffy on this one, squee. One both accounts. First, she is wanting to be the bad girl and two, if you are not comfortable with, it goes against your grain, then you might want to end the relationship before it goes on to much further. It sounds like you need someone who can appreciate your gifts both outside the sack as well as in. ;) Keep looking until you find it. I know it is out there.

It took me a long time to find Kol. I went thru an abusive marriage and all, years before I met Kol. I am a stronger person because of it (the first marriage) and consequently the person Kol fell in love with. Kol had his share on unhappy relationships, all which made him the person I fell in love with. So it will happen.
As Billy WiggleArrow says..."to thine ownself me true"

Now, I let you figure out who Billy WiggleArrow is.

[MrsKol]

That should read, "to thine ownself be true"

Sorry about that

[Mudflap]

Billy = William

WiggleArrow = Shakespeare


Oh yeah. I'm sharp.

[MrsKol]

You deserve a couple of gold stars for that.

[Mudflap]

I'll settle for a cold beverage. I'll collect at the Jump. :D

[Mr. Snrub]

I am more sinned against than sinning.

[squee]

Originally posted by Goatboy
Squee, your sexual immaturity and naivity regarding male / female relations is a source of tremendous amusment to me.

Of course it is. Mere ignorance is always amusing to the truly stupid.

Originally posted by MrsKol
Well, it looks I agree with Muffy on this one, squee. One both accounts. First, she is wanting to be the bad girl and two, if you are not comfortable with, it goes against your grain, then you might want to end the relationship before it goes on to much further. It sounds like you need someone who can appreciate your gifts both outside the sack as well as in. Keep looking until you find it. I know it is out there.

Yes, that's all very true. I think I've matured to the point where advice on the lines of "Don't worry, you'll find the right girl someday" no longer irritates me, because I've acquired some patience because I actually believe it. I'm looking for a deeper, more meaningful relationship with connections on many levels--something that, for all their talk, many women my age cannot provide. I think it's more due to upbringing than anything else, and truthfully, most people my age are pretty shallow. I'm sure I'll find the right woman someday...but until then they are still a constant source of aggravation ;)

And yeah, Kol is the bomb :)

[Koliedrus]

I....
*blush*

[GoFuckYourselves!]

Here's my two cents:

I think you, Squee, have the problem... not her.

It is YOU who is calling it "dirty". That is a value judgment that YOU are placing. I suppose you are assuming that because she's "upper class" that she should behave in a PREDETERMINED way (by you) in the bedroom. And since she is not behaving in that certain way, you have deemed her desires to be "dirty".

Maybe she's sexually creative! Maybe she simply enjoys a wider array of sexual delights than you.

Just because her desires don't coincide with yours doesn't mean that what she wants from you is "dirty" sex.

[Goatboy]

Originally posted by squee
Of course it is. Mere ignorance is always amusing to the truly stupid.

The weight of experience behind your opinion is dragging all the other threads into this one!

No, wait. It must be the vacuum caused by your complete lack of perspective on the issue.

[squee]

Oh, then by all means, please enlighten me with your worldly view. I didn't know that it was my lack of perspective that was keeping me from wanting to degrade someone and be degraded in bed! All I need is to expand my worldview a little bit and treating someone like shit during the most intimate act imaginable in life won't seem like such a problem. Maybe when I'm more experienced (jaded) I'll have less difficulty seeing sex like you do--ie, something you do to someone rather than with them.

[Goatboy]

Adult sexual relations involve give and take, some girls like to do things (or have things done) that don't ring my bell.

A good lover will do what is neccessary to fulfill their partners lusts and dreams. Pretty much the only way to have a truly fulfilling sexual experience is to give more of yourself to the other person than you receive from them. Your fulfilling their fantasy does this.

"Maybe when I'm more experienced (jaded) I'll have less difficulty seeing sex like you do--ie, something you do to someone rather than with them."

This shows you patently don't understand. If a woman wants to be whipped, sodomized, (consensualy) raped, talked dirty to or degraded in any way, it is your duty as a good lover to do this for her. MstrG I think raised some find points at Asylum over the importance of the individual realising the motive for their desire to be treated thus and in a giving relationship you can help her find these reasons. But in my experience, women who have a kink, like the kink even if they realise the root of it was an initial unhealthy event.

Prudish attitudes and a lack of willingness to explore a partners fantasy are the gravetones on many a relationship.

[squee]

Let me know if I understand this, goatboy.

I think it's wrong to degrade people. But just because she wants me to do it, I am obligated to do it? What kind of bullshit is that? Being forced or coerced to do things in a sexual situation that you don't want to do is called sexual assault. If you don't agree, then think of it this way--nobody would call it anything else if I made a girl give me head when she didn't want to.

Far from being prudish, I'm defending myself. If I don't want to do it, I shouldn't have to do it--and if she doesn't respect that, she can just fuck right off.

PS: So can you.

[Rabble Rouser]

If a relationship is give and take, why should squee abandon his morals and give her total reign over the sexual activities? Why is his attitude the one that's wrong? Why is it wrong for him to stay fast to his beliefs but it's right for the girl to have hers?

Squee, don't change. People have differing opinions on matters like this, and if she wants to be treated like a dirty gutterslut, let someone else degrade her like that. Like I said earlier, a relationship is give and take. Yes, you should give, but so should she.

[Goatboy]

Oh I see now.

She is sexually assualting you by asking you to satisfy her in bed.

Way to go, lover.

[Goatboy]

Originally posted by Rabble Rouser
If a relationship is give and take, why should squee abandon his morals and give her total reign over the sexual activities?

Because he is being selfish, putting himself before her.

He shouldn't be with her if he isn't able to satisfy her. But he stayed with her for how long?

[Rabble Rouser]

Originally posted by Goatboy


Because he is being selfish, putting himself before her.

He shouldn't be with her if he isn't able to satisfy her. But he stayed with her for how long?

But isn't she being just as selfish, demanding him to abandon his morals to satisfy her?

[Goatboy]

Of course she is.

[squee]

Ok, fine, Goatboy, so the question remains, why is she right and I'm wrong?

And by the way: I did not say that I was being sexually assaulted. But what you are suggesting would be sexual assault if I tried it on a woman. So you like double standards too, I guess.

Maybe she's sexually creative! Maybe she simply enjoys a wider array of sexual delights than you.

Just because her desires don't coincide with yours doesn't mean that what she wants from you is "dirty" sex.

Sorry, gfy, I didn't see your post...

You are absolutely right, in that it is not my judgement that makes something right or wrong or dirty or clean. But it is impossible to go through life without judging things--and if I don't want to do something, then why the fuck should I have to? What you're saying to me, because obviously you like this kind of sexually adventurous woman, is that my judgement is wrong only because it disagrees with yours (ie, you are as full of shit as Goatboy)

[Goatboy]

There is no right or wrong issue here. Only the question of whether you will give more of yourself to satisfy her fantasy (something which doesn't ring your bell) or not.

There is no grey moral ground here. No sexual assualt. She is consenting, more importantly she is requesting this behaviour. The fact you won't fulfill these requests is fine. Lots of men don't. But don't lets dress this up as her having issues in bed, or you refraining from action and taking some moral highground on the issue (though the original post was so long ago I couldn't immediatly say for sure that is what you did). You don't do it (I would hazard) because the idea of it disturbs you, turns you off, repulses you - whatever. My contention is a good lover fulfills his partners needs and dreams despite these feelings. You are attampting to make out that by fulfilling these types of fantasies for the woman the man is either a rapist or a heel. I am trying to point out that is quite the opposite.

[squee]

No, Goatboy, you have changed your stance on this one. Sorry. Busted. You just went from maintaining that I was obligated to please her whether I wanted to or not to simply saying "Hey, it's a grey area." I also don't see how you could ignore decades of psychological research that say that when someone wants to be demeaned (not just get rough, not just get dominated, but treated like absolute shit) the girl usually has some kind of "issues." And simply because I'm not willing to feed her psychoses in order to get off, you're trying to make me look like a stiffnecked prude.

On the contrary, I think I am standing up for what's right and if I would hazard a guess I'd say that the reason this has you so tipped is because your own conscience is telling you I'm right.

Goatboy?

---
edit: something else I just thought of. If there are no deeper "issues" involved and I'm being too "judgemental," then why were you able to make the call that I was being a bad lover just because I didn't want to do this to a girl? Answer me that one please.

[Goatboy]

Originally posted by squee
No, Goatboy, you have changed your stance on this one. Sorry. Busted. You just went from maintaining that I was obligated to please her whether I wanted to or not to simply saying "Hey, it's a grey area."

I never said it was a grey area. I said there 'was no grey moral ground here'. I also said as a good lover you were obligated. Read whats on the page, not whats in your head.


Originally posted by squee
I also don't see how you could ignore decades of psychological research that say that when someone wants to be demeaned (not just get rough, not just get dominated, but treated like absolute shit) the girl usually has some kind of "issues." And simply because I'm not willing to feed her psychoses in order to get off, you're trying to make me look like a stiffnecked prude.

First off, I hardly need to make you look like a 'stiffnecked prude', in fact I would go so far as to compliment you on your phenomenal ability to ingrain us all with this impression with each one of your banal and blinkered posts.

Ignoring the issue is not the answer, nor is preachy disapproval. You say I am ignoring 'decades of psychological research' yet I thought I made clear here:

MstrG I think raised some fine points at Asylum over the importance of the individual realising the motive for their desire to be treated thus and in a giving relationship you can help her find these reasons

in an earlier post that you should not ignore the issue but work through the motives for why she wants to feel like this. You say you 'don't want to feed her psychosis' but what I hear is 'I don't want to help this woman or explore the reasons why she feels this'.

Originally posted by squee
On the contrary, I think I am standing up for what's right and if I would hazard a guess I'd say that the reason this has you so tipped is because your own conscience is telling you I'm right.

Goatboy?

It is apparant there is no give in you. You don't want to help this woman, in your vanity you hold yourself and your naive opinions to be right and her feelings and desires to be wrong. You decline to help her through this in a manner that wouldn't demean her pride.

"Let not him that is deceived trust in vanity: for vanity shall be his recompence"

My conscience is doing fine. But I find it interesting that you would bring it up.

Originally posted by squee
something else I just thought of. If there are no deeper "issues" involved

I never said this. In fact I said quite the opposite. Thank you though for another great example that you read only what you want to see.

[MuffyTheVampyreLayer]

Squee - must you nibble goatboys bait?

Goatboy - It's bad manners to play with your food.

[squee]

If I get with a girl who doesn't want to suck dick, you're saying she's being "selfish" because she doesn't want to do it? And that if I try to coerce her into doing it that it's not sexual assault? And that further she should try to help me figure out why I want to force women to suck my cock rather than just dump me for being an asshole?

Exactly what kind of world do you live in?

The issue of whether or not I'm "staying with her" is null. Even if I were staying in that town (I've been transferred), there is no way I would stay with a girl who had fucked six men in four months. She wants nothing more than to use people--fuck that. Apparently you think I should allow myself to be demeaned as well. So, should we add self-respect to the list of things that don't exist in your world?

All this other shit is a smokescreen and nothing but. You're doing nothing but accusing me of the same shit you're doing. It's pretty obvious by now that you're not going to give me any good advice (if you recall, your initial advice consisted mainly of saying I should fuck her and that I wasn't a "man" if I didn't). Now suddenly you're Sigmund Freud. Ok.

[Lady Sianna]

mmm...goatboy's bait. :)

i have to admit to an alignment with the red devil on this particular topic. to be a good lover, one must consider the wants & needs of the other. open & honest communication between lovers is essential.

squee - if you genuinely care for this woman, then you will explore her fantasy world...likewise, she should respect your boundaries. it is probable that the two of you are simply sexually incompatible (unable or unwilling to attend to the wants & needs of the other) and there is no point in continuing the interaction on that level. never do anything that you are uncomfortable doing. i'm quite certain there are plenty of men out there who can fulfill her "bad girl" desires.

you can do nothing but remain true to yourself...as has been said already.

[squee]

With advice like that, you ought to change your name to Lady Polonius. I have to violate my moral standards in order to "explore her sexuality" and yet you end it by saying "to thine own self, be true." Ok.

Actually, Sianna, I don't care about this girl. She is a dishonest, promiscuous, manipulative bitch who sees everyone around her as cardboard cutouts instead of real people, and I for one am glad I got orders to somewhere away from her. And hopefully I won't meet many people like her. I have considered her offer and turned it down. And I will not be continuing any interaction with her at all in the future.

So, self-contradiction aside, Sianna, you gave the best advice so far.

[Goatboy]

Originally posted by squee
If I get with a girl who doesn't want to suck dick, you're saying she's being "selfish" because she doesn't want to do it? And that if I try to coerce her into doing it that it's not sexual assault? And that further she should try to help me figure out why I want to force women to suck my cock rather than just dump me for being an asshole?

Astounding. I write one thing, you read another.

You truly are a retard (and an emasculated one at that).

[TotalAnarchy]

Goatboy - if worthless bickering is all you can come up with, then shut up. Otherwise, be constructive.

[GoFuckYourselves!]

Originally posted by squee

Sorry, gfy, I didn't see your post...

You are absolutely right, in that it is not my judgement that makes something right or wrong or dirty or clean. But it is impossible to go through life without judging things--and if I don't want to do something, then why the fuck should I have to?

NO! I don't think you should do something that you don't want to do. I never said you should.

First of all, I never read the specifics of what she asked of you. And I don't care to, either.

My point simply had to do with your philosophy about her sexual needs not coinciding with what you thought an upper class girl to like... as if an "upper class" girl wouldn't like what a "lower class" girl would like.

If I may get personal; If my girlfriend asked me to do anal on her, I WOULD NOT! That's just not something that interests me... not even to try ONCE! However, if she did ask me to do that, I wouldn't label what she wanted as "dirty".

That's all I'm saying here.

[Goatboy]

Originally posted by TotalAnarchy
Goatboy - if worthless bickering is all you can come up with, then shut up. Otherwise, be constructive.

You trying to up your post count with yet another pointless post?

[TotalAnarchy]

Oh, the point was there. Just because it didnt lodge its way out of or into someone's ass doesnt mean that it wasnt there.

Try along these lines - Squee raised a scenareo, asked for some advice. Difficult situation. From trying to be constructive, which is what I think you were trying to do initially, afterwards, you just flung shit. See my point now? Or do you want me to spell it out to you, asshole?

[Goatboy]

Tell you what, when I need an opinion of your calibre I'll ask the nearest downs child and save you the bother of trying to verbalise those occasional thoughts that pass through the emptiness of your brain facsimilie.

[rage]

children, children! That's it, both of you are banned to the corner to sit and think about what you have done.

Squee- I think what sianna was trying to say, before you (somewhat) got pissed at her was this:

A good sexual relationship will come about if both parties are willing to try things different, even it isn't their favorite things to do.

But, it is important to stay true to yourself on certain things also.

You can experiment and still stay true to yourself man, don't get pissed at her cause you didn't follow what she was saying.

oh yes, about the girl, you prob. made the right choice...manipulative psycho bitches aren't the best way to go in relationships.

[squee]

Originally posted by GoFuckYourselves!
NO! I don't think you should do something that you don't want to do. I never said you should.

First of all, I never read the specifics of what she asked of you. And I don't care to, either.

My point simply had to do with your philosophy about her sexual needs not coinciding with what you thought an upper class girl to like... as if an "upper class" girl wouldn't like what a "lower class" girl would like.

If I may get personal; If my girlfriend asked me to do anal on her, I WOULD NOT! That's just not something that interests me... not even to try ONCE! However, if she did ask me to do that, I wouldn't label what she wanted as "dirty".

That's all I'm saying here.

Ok, well it seems as if Goatboy is arguing that if I want to keep a girl I should do anything she wants me to do (not that I want to keep this one...in the words of my priest, "Shit, she sounds like a real winner..." You'll have to imagine the :rolleyes: )

I actually don't know very many wealthy people. Not personally. I've worked around them a lot in various odd jobs and so far all I've found is that most of them are more base than the rest of us--but with a nice veneer on top of it. So I'm really not suprised, and yet I am too.

I do wonder why you wouldn't label it as "dirty." What if she presses you for a reason? I mean, how is saying "Cuz it's dirty!" different from other reasons you might offer?

rage--
I'm not mad at Sianna at all...it just seemed to me that the advice was a bit self-contradictory, is all. Part of me wants to follow everyone's advice since as Goatboy pointed out I don't get with wimmins all that often and so I don't know very much. But I think in this case I don't need to know the situation since what I want to do is follow my moral & ethical standards.

I think that a healthy sexual relationship is not just something you can have per se, but perhaps something that develops over time. So if I were with a girl whom I cared about for a long time and we had been steadily getting more and more adventurous in bed--then maybe I could try what this girl wanted, on a limited basis. Ie, I can not and will not debase someone so there would have to be limits (something else Goat's crowd isn't familiar with, I think).

[rage]

Originally posted by squee

...in the words of my priest, "Shit, she sounds like a real winner..." You'll have to imagine the :rolleyes:
my thoughts exactly.


I do wonder why you wouldn't label it as "dirty." What if she presses you for a reason? I mean, how is saying "Cuz it's dirty!" different from other reasons you might offer?

"I dont feel comfortable doing that" or "I dont feel comfortable doing that yet" or "I dont enjoy that" or "I dont want to do that right now"
are all far different from
"that is dirty!"
Because, the latter infers that there is something just NASTY about what they want, and while it might be "dirty" to your standards, it isn't to everyone, and believe you me, pissing of a girl by calling her dirty, isn't going to get you laid in a "clean" way.


rage--
I'm not mad at Sianna at all...it just seemed to me that the advice was a bit self-contradictory, is all. Part of me wants to follow everyone's advice since as Goatboy pointed out I don't get with wimmins all that often and so I don't know very much. But I think in this case I don't need to know the situation since what I want to do is follow my moral & ethical standards.

Sorry for the assumption, it probably came across like that because after reading goatboys post, you probably weren't in the best of moods (which is understandable). If you think about it, it really ISN'T all that contradictory. If you like, I will explain more in a later post.

As far as "I don't need to know the situation" - buzzz....wrong answer. With every moral or ethical question you ALWAYS need to know the situation to make the best decision possible.

"situational ethics" - i.e. - I don't believe in abortion, but if the baby and the mother are going to die, I will support the abortion. or, I dont believe in murder, but if I could have killed hitler, I would have, using both of my bare hands to rip his head off of his body.

Sometimes things in one light, really aren't that bad, and sometimes even the best decision, in another light.


I think that a healthy sexual relationship is not just something you can have per se, but perhaps something that develops over time. So if I were with a girl whom I cared about for a long time and we had been steadily getting more and more adventurous in bed--then maybe I could try what this girl wanted, on a limited basis. Ie, I can not and will not debase someone so there would have to be limits (something else Goat's crowd isn't familiar with, I think).
I agree in one sense, that a healthy sexual relationship will progress over time, but as far as trying something new, I would be open to that (as long as it didn't involve another guy...jealousy would get the best of me and I would have to kill him, and prison sux, or so I am told.), the reasons I would be open to it is because:
1.)I'm an adventurous mo-fo!
2.)I would be more concerned w/ pleasing them than myself...
3.)If what she wanted me to do doesn't get me off, but gets her off, then I have an I.O.U. from her for something faaarrreeeeaaakkkkkyy!!!

:) :p

[Koliedrus]

Originally posted by GoFuckYourselves!


If my girlfriend asked me to do anal on her, I WOULD NOT! That's just not something that interests me... not even to try ONCE!


*raises hand*

What's she look like?

[rage]

Originally posted by Koliedrus



*raises hand*

What's she look like?

NO! the first question in regards to this should be:

Does she wipe her ass?!

[Lady Sianna]

posted by squee:

I think that a healthy sexual relationship is not just something you can have per se, but perhaps something that develops over time.

that is one of the most perceptive statement to come out of you yet! :D

and btw, i wasn't being contradictory...you just misinterpreted my intention. but that doesn't surprise me. :p

the more you know and care about someone, the more you open yourself to them and the more willing you are to explore things (sexually and otherwise).

p.s. thanks for trying to clarify, rage. :)

[rage]

eh well, I do my best, even if I am partially wrong ;)

[squee]

Rage sez:
As far as "I don't need to know the situation" - buzzz....wrong answer. With every moral or ethical question you ALWAYS need to know the situation to make the best decision possible.

"situational ethics" - i.e. - I don't believe in abortion, but if the baby and the mother are going to die, I will support the abortion. or, I dont believe in murder, but if I could have killed hitler, I would have, using both of my bare hands to rip his head off of his body.

Sometimes things in one light, really aren't that bad, and sometimes even the best decision, in another light.

I disagree completely. I don't believe in situational ethics. In cases of moral right and wrong there are no grey areas--the only times when it doesn't appear to be black and white are when emotions cloud the issue. If something is right, it's got to be right all the time, and if something is wrong, it's got to be wrong all the time. For example...follow my logic here. You say

"Murdering Adolph Hitler is right, whereas murdering other people is wrong."

Whereas I would say:
1. The killing of innocents is murder.
2. Murder is always wrong.
3. Adolph Hitler was not innocent. Therefore,
4. Killing Adolph Hitler is not murder.

Or...
1 & 2. See above
3. A fetus is an innocent.
4. Abortion kills a fetus. Therefore,
5. Abortion is murder. Therefore,
6. Abortion is wrong.

Any time there is an abortion, a wrong, an injustice, has occurred. I recognize that sometimes you are forced by circumstance to do something wrong, but that does not make it "Ok." That would be like arguing that if you're driving and you run over a six-year-old because the road was icy, that no bad came from the situation because it's not "your fault."

Sometimes emotions are so strong that they make it impossible for any normal person (aside from Mr. Spock) to make a logical decision. I understand that sometimes you have no choice but to allow your heart to make a decision your brain cannot. But again, this does not mean that this is in any way preferable.

What does this all have to do with the topic at hand? Merely that I believe that it is wrong to degrade women. It is always wrong. Now, you can argue that if this is someone's consensual sexual fantasy, then it might not really be degrading--although I would argue that point as well. But in no way am I, as Goatboy said, obligated to violate my moral standards just to please someone else. His argument is sexist and (I think) belies some misogyny. But, I'm not a shrink, I could be wrong. Whatever the case, I ain't doin' it, and that's final.

[Goatboy]

Originally posted by squee
But in no way am I, as Goatboy said, obligated to violate my moral standards just to please someone else. His argument is sexist and (I think) belies some misogyny.

You take me out of context and demonstrate your ignorance once again.

Also your logical chain up there is what the nerds call 'spurious logic'.

Look it up.

[squee]

I don't see any good references on Ask or Google or Dogpile. So you'll have to educate me as to what is wrong with this:

1. If A, then B.
2. If B, then C.
3. If C, then D. Therefore,
4. If A, then D.

edit: Ok, in the Hitler example you can remove step 2. Other than that I don't see the problem.

Now...I have read and re-read your posts and what I am honestly getting out of it is that you think that no matter how I feel about what she wants me to do, that I should do it, and that the reason I don't want to do it is because I'm just sexually immature, selfish, prudish, ignorant, et cetera ad nauseum. And I am arguing that regardless of whether she wants it or not, if I think it's wrong, then I shouldn't have to do it; and that having morals does not make me immature, selfish, or any of that--in fact, quite the opposite.

Now if you can explain to me exactly where you think I'm missing your argument, then please do so; otherwise, kindly fuck off.