*****DISCLAIMER*****
This will be pretty lengthy. I consider it an important issue, and also a VERY complex one. Those of you who have your “pre-conceived notions,” or haven’t studied into abortion, sit down, study, and most of all, think. Then make your decisions.
*****DISCLAIMER*****
Now, before I go into anything, let me say this. I am NOT one fo those people who are going to kill a doctor because he performs an abortion. I’m not going to stand outside a clinic, and yell at someone saying, “you are murdering a child, you will rot in hell, ect…” while holding up a picture of an aborted fetus. Why? One, because I don’t think that is really what the people going in to have an abortion want to hear or see. Most of the time they are stressed, worried, sad, already, and don’t need a guilt trip on top of it.
Second of all, let me say this. I have researched this topic through and through. I DO know what I am talking about. Because of the fact that many people echoed some of the same idea’s, I am going to be taking it idea by idea, with notations about whom said/agreed with/expanded upon these ideas. Anyways….let me get to my points…
(II) The fetus is not a “real” person. (i.e. It is just tissue)
(Faceplant, Buddhas Penis!)
Now, this argument, more than any other, pisses me off. This argument is what allows people to go in and have abortions with out guilt. “It isn’t alive, it doesn’t matter if it dies.”
Faceplant, I find you especially ignorant on this area, evident by the fact that you opened your mouth, and what came out of it in regards to this. Face the facts. Just because you “BELIEVE” something, doesn’t make it true. I “believe” that the moon is made of green cheese, but simple facts have proven that wrong. Ignoring facts to believe what you want to believe is a cop-out
You said that a person is something “breathing” something “in plain view of the world.” You couldn’t be more wrong. Here is what the dictionary has to say about what a “person” is:
“The composite of characteristics that make up an individual personality; the self” (dictionary.com)
Well, in that definition, a fetus would be a person. It has it’s own characteristics; it’s own personality. Physical attributes, and personality, are things that are part of the coding that is in the fetus at the moment of conception. Granted, it they may have yet to manifest themselves, but they are there. In 18 days the heart is beating. Within 4 weeks, that heart is pumping blood through a circulatory system. The mothers placenta has formed a barrier that keeps the fetus’s blood separate from the mothers, while allowing oxygen and nutrients to go through. Arms, legs, and eyes are already showing. Within 40 days of conception, brain waves are detectable and recordable. Within 7 weeks, the liver is producing blood cells, and the BRAIN is controlling movement. Enough of the walk through, I think you get the point
Both fetus AND newborn rely on their mother’s support. It is possible now for a fetus to be taken out of the mother, and to live without her. What is the difference between that and a child? Both are living. Both are pumping blood, feeling things, moving. Both need someone and something to support them. If they aren’t living because they aren’t fully “self-dependent” would allow you to raise the bar on abortion to 10 year olds, if not older.
The real question here is “When does life begin?” What is the definition of “living?”
“To be alive, exist. To be real.” (dictionary.com) Does a fetus not exist? Is it not real? Just cause YOU cant see it doesn’t mean it isn’t real. It is there, it does exist.
(II) Mistakes happen (human error)
(Faceplant, Gone~Away)
Yes, mistakes do happen. But whatever happened to taking responsibility for your actions? Abortion because you made a “mistake” is a weakness and a cop-out. If I have a car accident because I was driving 90mph on a city road, and I hit someone, I have to take responsibility for that. I knew that something might happen. It is the same with sex. You KNOW the consequences, you KNOW what might happen, even WITH using a condom, or with birth control Neither of those methods are 100% effective, and everyone knows that. Be prepared for the results. Yes, some people may not be ready for the responsibility of raising a child, but that is no reason for abortion. There are other options. Adoption for one. Why is that ignored? Cause no one wants to put up with the 9 months of hell they will go through? Is it tough? Yes. Will you live through it? Chances are you will. Also, why is being pregnant such a “consequence” anyways? Yes, it is 9 months of agony, I have no doubt about that, I had to put up with my mother when she was pregnant 3 times. But is it worth the miracle of bringing a child into the world? I think so, yes. Human error means you fucked up. A LARGE part of being human is being able to stand up and take responsibility for your actions.
(III) Abortion is 100% perfect – that is why it is there
(Faceplant)
This just proves the fact that you have done no research into this Faceplant, and you have no idea beyond preconceived notions of what you are talking about. That is just an ignorant statement. People HAVE and DO die from abortions. Babies have LIVED after an abortion has been performed. (interesting side note – if they live past the abortion, should we still kill them? Is it still considered an “abortion?” – that is just PART of the complexity of abortion, even if it rarely happens) Abortion is a brutal thing. It has proven psychological damage on women. Women bleed to death because of the procedure sometimes. The same women who would have been perfectly healthy after/during the pregnancy. Abortion can have the worst side effects of any “birth-control” drug/procedure there is out there.
(IV) The pro-lifers are the one killing people
[/i](Faceplant, Rabble Rouser)[/i]
This is a GROSS generalization. Pro-lifers who kill people are the only ones who get noticed by the media. Most of the people who are pro-life are NOT like that. I know, because I know a great many pro-lifers, being the fact that my parents are missionaries and all. Just as great of a percentage of pro-choice people, if not a greater amount, kill people. Wako’s are everywhere, and believe many ranges of things. Because a handful of those people have killed abortionist’s, ect., that is NO reason to lay a blanket statement like that. Generalizing pro-lifers like that is ignorance, and again, a product of pre-conceived notions and a lack of research.
(V) The man has no say whatsoever
(Rabble Rouser, Faceplant)
Up until the point that the man decides to lave the woman, he does have a say. If he forsakes his responsibility, not only should he rot in hell forever, but he also should lose all say in any matter relating to the child. But you have to remember, that 23 of the 46 chromosomes that make up that child came from the father. The child could not exist with out him. But, if the man takes responsibility, if he takes care of the woman he impregnated, if he is there for her, if he helps her, if he holds your hair while you throw up, and goes to get pickles and ice cream at 3a.m., if he provides for you when you do have to quit your job, then, the he baby is just as much his as it is yours. He had as much of a part in CONCIEVING the child as you did. Don’t blanket men like that. Not all of them are assholes. Not all of them shirk their responsibilities. I know just as many men who now support the woman they got pregnant, as I do those who ran from the responsibility.
Those are the main points for abortion that I saw so far. I will add more as other people do also. Here are some other points that also came up, and what I think about them…
Inky – I just read your post, gonna respond to it here…
1.)Many pro-life organizations are actually organizations under larger organizations. And yes, those larger organizations do things to help those “unwanted” children/teens. Why? Cause they care about life. From a fetus to the old man on the street. They care about them. They do what they can for them. They are just as active in other areas. One good example is Youth With A Mission. They have helped people of all ages, people who are neglected, they care for. I know one family who has adopted FIVE children, all from over seas, all abused at one point, and has cared and loved them better than almost anyone I know has cared for their children. Also, YWAM has an “organization” under it called Father Heart. There is a Father Heart base located near Garden Valley. What do they do? They take in women who have decided to keep their children, care for them, and help them through their pregnancy, and afterwards. You wont find them screaming at abortionists, or at women who have an abortion. They sit down, talk with them, let those women pour out their hearts to them, and show them alternatives. They don’t force their belief on anyone, the simply provide women with another way out. They even help with adoption if the mother should choose not to keep it.
2.) Deceptively promoting themselves as neutral? Well, for one. I think that is impossible. Your own beliefs always play a part in how you show facts. Some people are more able to give straight facts. There are places out there that only give the facts, yes, and many women don’t choose abortion. Why? Cause they see the horrors of it. But if you are going to talk about deception, please, DON’T leave Planned Parenthood out of it. To them, abortion is just another form of birth control, no different than a condom, except that it will end a pregnancy already started. Abortion agencies almost NEVER show the facts straight. They try and convince you why it is so good, why it doesn’t matter, while living TONS of important facts out. Like the consequences for one. Why is that? Cause they get funding for abortions, and they are counting on the money. Most “pro-life” organizations are non-profit, and therefore, their only motivation is what they belive, and many, MANY, just don’t sugar coat abortion. If that is deceptive, I am sorry for being blunt.
Time Limits? – in some occasions, the heart is already beating before the mother of the child realizes that she has missed her period. In less than two months, there are detectable brain waves. Statistically, most abortions occur AFTER that point. Where do we set the cut off? What are the chances that we will again move that time to later and later dates, as people become desensitized to abortion? It has happened before. Look at partial birth abortion.
State Funded – I am totally AGAINST state funding. Why? Because in almost ALL cases, it is used as a form of birth control. “Whoops, we fucked up.” I am not supporting someone else running from responsibility. If they cant afford to have the child, but go ahead with it, Uncle Sam can take my money for that all day.
Princess Heather, I just want to say that I applaud you for your decision. I have never seen one performed, and even though I have researched almost every method of abortion there is, I still haven’t experienced one personally. Nor do I want to. What you had to witness is one of the most gruesome types that there are. And you made an excellent point. Most women, if they have the child, will wonder why they even thought about abortion, because they love it so much. Also, part of the physiological damage that some women get after an abortion is the realization that they killed a baby. That they killed someone who was part of them, someone they would have taken care of, loved, and watched grown up. Abortion is harsh. If you call it birth control, it is the most INHUMANE form of birth control that there is.
Kol, my deepest sympathies. My mother lost two babies to miscarriages before having my little sister. One of them they had to perform a similar procedure. Abortion is harsh, and so is a miscarriage. That procedure, I agree whole heartedly with. I am sorry about your loss, but also happy that you now have to children. And from what you tell us of them, they are great kids, and you and Mrs. Kol. are great people.
What is my stance on abortion? If it isn’t obvious, I am against it in almost all cases. Where would I allow it? In cases where the chances are if the baby and both the mother will die, and an abortion will save the mother, than an abortion is necessary. In cases of rape, I would strongly urge the mother to go through with the pregnancy, even if she puts it up for adoption. But, I think that final decision must rest with her. To me, it is ridiculous that so many people would want to kill an innocent child, when there are so many people out there who would give all they own to have a child, but have to wait 5 years to get one through adoption. Abortion is a self-ish procedure on almost all counts.
One last note. I also find it interesting that so many people refer to pregnancy as “a consequence.” What is the terrible thing about giving life?! It doesn’t cease to amaze me, people will run from 9 months of being uncomfortable, because they don’t realize that they are going to have a CHILD! LIFE, man!!! You are bringing a beautiful, precious LIFE into existence!!!
Anyways. To all of you who chose to read that, thank you. To those of you who haven’t, go back up and read it. It wont take you more than five minutes. Don’t follow the notions of “pro-choice” because that is what most people believe, and because of the pre-conceived notions of it. Study. Think. Don’t be complacent.
-luke
p.s. sorry ‘bout the long post…I warned you!
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" Three - legged Jeans.
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Edit: It kept making self-ish (w/o the '-') as a bunch of: ******
[This message has been edited by rage (edited 05-28-2001).]