i think this might sum it up.

[Faceplant]

on the back of my car i have 2 bumper stickers...

right hand side:
<IMG SRC="http://www.geocities.com/ctbubba77/keepitflying.jpg" border=0>

and on the left hand side:
<IMG SRC="http://www.geocities.com/ctbubba77/hershiny.jpg" border=0>

study the last one..notice..heritage..not hate...

this is my history..doesnt represent, for me, any hate for any group..and mis conseptiong piss me off..

heather was mearly showing her heritage..not displaying hate...in protest, i want heather back here.

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<IMG SRC="http://www.geocities.com/ctbubba77/pee.gif" border=0><IMG SRC="http://www.geocities.com/ctbubba77/jumpynig.gif" border=0>

[Mudflap]

<FONT COLOR="Orange">A certain phrase about a can of worms comes to mind.</FONT c>

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If you build it, they will come.

[MstrG]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by Mudflap:
<FONT COLOR="Orange">A certain phrase about a can of worms comes to mind.</FONT c>

[/quote]

But that's a good thing when people are ravenous for worms, and that hunger persists and won't subside.

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SETI@Home (http://www.asylumnation.com/asylum_html/rec.html) : join us!

[Mr. Snrub]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by MstrG:

But that's a good thing when people are ravenous for worms, and that hunger persists and won't subside.

[/quote]

But surely the worms were in long-term storage for good reason... a sudden whim on the part of the populace for worms should not be allowed to compromise their long-term health.

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<IMG SRC="http://empathy-online.com/images/ezlg.jpg" border=0>

[Bumox]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by Faceplant:
on the back of my car i have 2 bumper stickers...

right hand side:
<IMG SRC="http://www.geocities.com/ctbubba77/keepitflying.jpg" border=0>

and on the left hand side:
<IMG SRC="http://www.geocities.com/ctbubba77/hershiny.jpg" border=0>

study the last one..notice..heritage..not hate...

this is my history..doesnt represent, for me, any hate for any group..and mis conseptiong piss me off..

heather was mearly showing her heritage..not displaying hate...in protest, i want heather back here.

[/quote]


A heritage rich in rasicm, promotion of slavery, bigotry, and midnight hangings. But never hate http://www.thehypertribe.net/ubb/rolleyes.gif

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Peace

[This message has been edited by Bumox (edited 02-03-2001).]

[MuffyTheVampyreLayer]

Yeah right. So the next time you see a bumper sticker saying 'KKK - Making the world a whiter place' you will think they are talking about their right to wear little white hoods rather than their attitude?


------------------
Bite me.

[Stevo]

Everyone just shut the fuck up. So fucking what if his heritage thrived on hate. I'm part german and i'm fucking proud of it. Are you going to tell me i cant have old things of my granddad's on the wall because he might have been a nazi? Fuck this shit. Get your heads out of the collective ass you continually rim and think about other people's right to be proud of where they came from. It's a part of history, do you want america to get every fucking history book and rip out every page. You could go as far as saying that our american flag stands for 48 states that we raped from the indians. Quit bitching.

[Bumox]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by Stevo:
So fucking what if his heritage thrived on hate.
[/quote]
HUH? Now that is truly evil. http://www.thehypertribe.net/ubb/eek.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>
You could go as far as saying that our American flag stands for 48 states that we raped from the Indians. Quit bitching. [/quote]

If I can remember American history correctly, it was the white man who seriously cluster fucked the American Indian. Now they live on small chucks of land called reservations....



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Peace

[MuffyTheVampyreLayer]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by Stevo:
I'm part german and i'm fucking proud of it. Are you going to tell me i cant have old things of my granddad's on the wall because he might have been a nazi? [/quote]

Nope, but if I saw you walking down the street with a swastika on your arm I would spit on you.

I'm merely questioning the logic of trying to validate symbols associated with hatred by saying that they are part of history. If that is all it truly means to the person, then I don't have a problem with it. But if it is just away of trying to make their racism legitimate, then they can kiss my arse. No one can expect people not to want to display stuff associated with their heritage, but there are certain ways of thinking which deserve to be condemned.

------------------
Bite me.

[Stevo]

Spitting on someone jsut for having a swatztika tells me you're a small person with no respect for the opinions of someone else because it isn't defined as socially acceptable by you. Intolerance toward a hater is still hate. i dont support hate, it sickens me, but i have white power friends who, while i disagree, have their own opinions. this entire fucking debate is stupid. It never ceases to amaze me, minorities scream RACISM and something that has been there for years is all of a sudden a misrepresentation of the state? You can't just erase something and pretend it never existed, until people can get over this petty litte fucking attitude about the past there should be no action to try and make it better. And please i beg all of you, dont try and understand something that doesn't even involve your hemisphere, this isn't a personal attack at muffy, but you can never TRULY understand something unless you experience it first hand. I would never try to tell you how your country should be.

[MuffyTheVampyreLayer]

Show me a reason why I should find anyone who upholds the ideals of a man who murdered millions of people for their beliefs socially acceptable and I will refrain from wasting my saliva on them.

No, you can't erase something and pretend it never happened, but you should also not feel compelled for any reason to just ACCEPT the racist attitude of others.

You have a point about my lack of acceptance for them, I admit, I am very intolerant of assholes, but at least my hatred stems from something a little more valid than ethnicity.

Why do you think that I can not have a valid opinion on this because I am not American? That is just fucking stupid. We had slavery in the past in NZ too, and we still have racism, and yes, I am a Maori (and damn proud of it) so I think I HAVE experienced it first hand.

You state that having an attitude toward this sort of behaviour is petty, well I think it is pitiful that people are so casual about it. It is apathy like that which allows our society to just keep degenerating. Every time there is a hate crime the majority seem to want to just let others deal with it, and carry on with their own lives, unless of course, it effects them.

Oh, and I am not trying to tell you how your country should be. I am saying people should not use something as arbitrary as race to determine a persons worth, nor should they promote this useless way of thinking in the guise of something which is supposed to resemble intelligent moral argument.

And you're right, I dont respect people who run around with kkk tattooed on their forehead or the like, but then, why the fuck should I? You seem to base your argument on the fact that you think everyone else should be as accepting of these flaws in other people as yourself. It is your choice to associate with racists if you want to, but don't try to tell me that I am less of a person for not wanting such wankers to spread their bullshit views in my presence. They are personally insulting MY heritage, and I have the right to defend myself.

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Bite me.

[Bumox]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by MuffyTheVampyreLayer:

Show me a reason why I should find anyone who upholds the ideals of a man who murdered millions of people for their beliefs socially acceptable and I will refrain from wasting my saliva on them.

No, you can't erase something and pretend it never happened, but you should also not feel compelled for any reason to just ACCEPT the racist attitude of others.

You have a point about my lack of acceptance for them, I admit, I am very intolerant of assholes, but at least my hatred stems from something a little more valid than ethnicity.

Why do you think that I can not have a valid opinion on this because I am not American? That is just fucking stupid. We had slavery in the past in NZ too, and we still have racism, and yes, I am a Maori (and damn proud of it) so I think I HAVE experienced it first hand.

You state that having an attitude toward this sort of behaviour is petty, well I think it is pitiful that people are so casual about it. It is apathy like that which allows our society to just keep degenerating. Every time there is a hate crime the majority seem to want to just let others deal with it, and carry on with their own lives, unless of course, it effects them.

Oh, and I am not trying to tell you how your country should be. I am saying people should not use something as arbitrary as race to determine a persons worth, nor should they promote this useless way of thinking in the guise of something which is supposed to resemble intelligent moral argument.

And you're right, I dont respect people who run around with kkk tattooed on their forehead or the like, but then, why the fuck should I? You seem to base your argument on the fact that you think everyone else should be as accepting of these flaws in other people as yourself. It is your choice to associate with racists if you want to, but don't try to tell me that I am less of a person for not wanting such wankers to spread their bullshit views in my presence. They are personally insulting MY heritage, and I have the right to defend myself.

[/quote]


I couldn't have said it better!!! http://www.thehypertribe.net/ubb/wink.gif

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Peace

[This message has been edited by Bumox (edited 02-04-2001).]

[gone~away]

........................................

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I am one.. of the many.... Machines Of Hate

[Cruise Director]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by MuffyTheVampyreLayer:


I'm merely questioning the logic of trying to validate symbols associated with hatred

[/quote]

Just a statement with a twist to the question:

Jesus was supposedly crucified. The cross was a symbol of hatred used to dispell of the enemy in biblical times. Why do most christians now have a cross hanging on their walls?



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Jesus Christ died for my sins, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt.

[Bumox]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by Cruise Director:
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by MuffyTheVampyreLayer:


I'm merely questioning the logic of trying to validate symbols associated with hatred

[/quote]

Just a statement with a twist to the question:

Jesus was supposedly crucified. The cross was a symbol of hatred used to dispell of the enemy in biblical times. Why do most christians now have a cross hanging on their walls?

[/quote]

*Bumox stares at computer screen in disbelief* <IMG SRC="http://www.zeonet.org/~bumox/smiles/drop.gif" border=0>

You have manage to completely warp the message that Muffy was trying to get across. Are you a lawyer? http://www.thehypertribe.net/ubb/biggrin.gif



------------------
Peace

[Cruise Director]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by Bumox:


*Bumox stares at computer screen in disbelief* <IMG SRC="http://www.zeonet.org/~bumox/smiles/drop.gif" border=0>

You have manage to completely warp the message that Muffy was trying to get across. Are you a lawyer? http://www.thehypertribe.net/ubb/biggrin.gif

[/quote]

No. Not a lawyer. I just believe that as a society we get too hung up on symbols. It's unavoidable. I, too, find some symbols offensive. We are conditioned to do so.



------------------
Jesus Christ died for my sins, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt.

[MuffyTheVampyreLayer]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by Cruise Director:

Just a statement with a twist to the question:

Jesus was supposedly crucified. The cross was a symbol of hatred used to dispell of the enemy in biblical times. Why do most christians now have a cross hanging on their walls?

[/quote]

I have no idea, I can only imagine what they would hang on their walls had jesus been given the lethal injection. http://www.thehypertribe.net/ubb/rolleyes.gif

But seriously, I don't know enough about the history to answer that. I would imagine that with the changing of times and what not, the original context gets lost, much like with the swastika. Who knows, maybe in years to come the pentagram will become a symbol of logic and reason http://www.thehypertribe.net/ubb/biggrin.gif



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<IMG SRC="http://www.geocities.com/blowfinger90210/sig.jpg" border=0>

[Cruise Director]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by MuffyTheVampyreLayer:


I have no idea, I can only imagine what they would hang on their walls had jesus been given the lethal injection. http://www.thehypertribe.net/ubb/rolleyes.gif

[/quote]

that's funny. I'm pretty sure I love you.



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Jesus Christ died for my sins, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt.

[MuffyTheVampyreLayer]

http://www.thehypertribe.net/ubb/eek.gif

*Blushes*

------------------
Bite me.

[SisterTaffy]

Face dear,

That *fetching* bumper sticker of yours reminds me of the good old days when my Granny Georgia-Sue Gaines and I would sit on the veranda of the old plantation and watch the field workers. The old negro spirituals that they sang as they worked in the 110 degree heat told us that they were a happy people.

Everyone please join me in a round of "I wish I was in Dixie". If you can't carry a tune then just hit the horn on your cars. Good Lord!

Absolutley in Shock by this thread,

Sister Taffy



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The Foremost Authority On All Things Biblical (http://www.sistertaffy.com) .

[Wise Womcat]

I personally don't believe that there is anything wrong with celebrating your heretage, as long as it is done in an appropriate manner. I never have had any problem with people have a rebel flag, because after all, it wasn't a slave flag, it was the flag of the suceeding states. And while I choose not to decorate my belongs (ie. car, walls, closet) with reminders of one of America's low points in history, doesn't mean that I have forgotten it or I look down upon anyone who does.

The problem I see with flying a rebel flag is that there are many people out there that don't realize what it's true meaning is. Therefore, they take offense to it. I think it is wrong for people to intentionally cause others unnecessary grief. Most of the people that display such decorum aren't doing it as a celebration of their heretage, but rather as a means of legally agitating another group of people.

It's the same thing for the Nazi's. If someone wanted to wear a swastika, they would be doing it purely to aggrivate someone. In no way would they say, "I am going to go celebrate my roots as a Nazi today by offending thousands of others." There are many different ways of observing your heretage than insulting others. And honestly, why do you try to remember a low point in your culture? That like saying "One time when I was 15 years old, I pissed all over my bed, so I'm going to wear this piss-stained sheet as a toga so that all will no I pissed my bed even after I reached puberty."
<IMG SRC="http://pic.alanspaintball.com/WebPage/monkey.gif" border=0>

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What are you gonna do? Beat me up? Send me to Nam? I ain't skeered, there ain't no war in Nam

[SisterTaffy]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by Wise Womcat:
I personally don't believe that there is anything wrong with celebrating your heretage, as long as it is done in an appropriate manner. I never have had any problem with people have a rebel flag, because after all, it wasn't a slave flag, it was the flag of the suceeding states. And while I choose not to decorate my belongs (ie. car, walls, closet) with reminders of one of America's low points in history, doesn't mean that I have forgotten it or I look down upon anyone who does.

The problem I see with flying a rebel flag is that there are many people out there that don't realize what it's true meaning is. Therefore, they take offense to it. I think it is wrong for people to intentionally cause others unnecessary grief. Most of the people that display such decorum aren't doing it as a celebration of their heretage, but rather as a means of legally agitating another group of people.

[/quote]

For the most part I agree with your well made point. But doesn't that sticker just make you think of Pabst Blue Ribbon beer, Red Man chewing tobacco, and a John Deer ball cap?


<FONT COLOR="White">shudders at the image</FONT c>

Sister Taffy

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The Foremost Authority On All Things Biblical (http://www.sistertaffy.com) .

[Koliedrus]

Because of the history attached to particular images, I tend to cringe when the most recent incarnation is used as a symbol of pride.

I'm half German.

Read that again. Take your time.

My birth could not have taken place if peaceful intentions weren't a part of human nature. I don't expect anyone to fall on their knees because of that revelation but I do want you to know that I have a personal opinion on this matter.

When I see a swastika, I see hate. My knowledge about it's history doesn't come into play.

Something that once represented good has been deconstructed (from native American ideaology to the Nazi mindset) into an image that spells embarrasment for humanity. The same can be said for the confederate flag.

I'm also a Southerner.

Read that as many times as it takes for it to sink in.

The confederate flag has taken on negative connotations. Arguments and historical recounts will never erase that FACT.

I'm proud of my German and Southern American heritages. I don't need symbols from the past to define my future or label my opinions.

My parents fought on opposite sides of WWII. Because of their ability to understand the greater aspects of human nature, you're reading a post from the offspring of enemies.

The confederate flag has been unnoficially categorized as a sign of hate, not pride. No matter the arguments presented, it will remain so historically.

[b] (Edit: grammer)

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RIF

Check into Tribal Chat! (http://www.thehypertribe.net/irc/)
<IMG SRC="http://geocities.com/matiasjakobsen/red.gif" border=0>

[This message has been edited by Koliedrus (edited 02-04-2001).]

[Rabble Rouser]

I'm getting real sick of people saying that you can only be proud of your heritage if nothing hateful ever happened. Guess what, people, I have news for you.

HATE IS EVERYWHERE. It is not confined to the South or Germany. Every corner of the globe is home to hatred. Hell, I live in the state that is home to more hate groups than any other state in the U.S. And it's not a Southern state. My heritage is pretty mixed, but I am part German and Russian. I get really angry when people assume I'm a Nazi or a Commie just because of where my families came from. Not everyone in Germany is/was a Nazi. Not all Russians are Communists. You're giving in to stereotypes, and it's pissing me off.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a terrible thing that hate exists at all, but the cold, hard truth is that it's out there, and it's everywhere. We have to learn to deal with it, as much as it hurts, because as tragic as it is, hate is here to stay.

As for the symbols, it's a two way street. I'm going with what Cruise stated earlier and I'm using the cross as an example. Millions of people have crosses. They see it as a symbol of God, their eternal savior and symbol of all that is good. I look at the cross and see the cause of our most tragic and deadly wars, the execution of millions of people because they didn't abide by Christian beliefs, "you're going to hell because you don't believe in God's way," etc. I look at the cross and see hate.

I think it's up to the individual. When I think of the confederate flag, I think of hate, but I also know that having no heritage there, I don't know how it really was living under Confederacy. Maybe the stories are overexaggerated, maybe they're not. It's not up to me to make that decision.

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"You did it, Nibbles! Now, nibble through my ball sack!" - Principal Skinner

[Mudflap]

<FONT COLOR="Orange">Blah. None of you know your history past the politically correct propaganda being taught in grade school.

Here's a quick lesson:

The Stars and Bars Flag in question was not the official flag of the Confederate States of America. It was the Battle Flag.

Why were their battles? Because there was a war. Was the war fought over the issue of slavery? Hell, fucking, NO. Northern whites had just as much disdain for black as their southern counterparts. The North was industrialized and did not have the need for slavery.

Hell, slavery was a dying institution in the South until Eli Whitney invented the cotton gin, making cotton a crop high in demand. At that time, harvesting cotton was a very labor intensive process. The resurgence of cotton being grown in the South revitalized the institution of slavery. But I digress.

The Civil War was fought over State's Rights, not the issue of slavery. Governments of the Southern States were oppressed by that of the Federal government. Citizens of the South did not want a strong Federal government.

Let's not forget the Emancipation Proclamation that President Lincoln issued, legally abolishing slavery in the United States. It was politically motivated and not issued until nearly the end of the Civil War. Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation to discourage European intervention on behalf of the Confederacy. Many European nations did not favor a strong United States and were rooting for a Confederate victory. Two smaller nations are less of a threat than one larger nation, after all. So how did the Emancipation Proclamation keep European countries from getting involved on behalf of the Confederacy? Simple. Slavery was not a politically correct institution in the arena of global politics. By MAKING slavery an issue of the Civil War, Lincoln helped ensure that European nations would think twice before allying with the Confederacy.

Summary: Slavery was NOT a major issue during the majority of the Civil War. It was only made an issue near the end solely as a political maneuver.

All of the men that fought and died following the flag in question were not motivated by keeping alive the institution of slavery. Hell, only a small minority of Southerners were wealthy enough to keep slaves. The South fought the Civil War because they wanted to be self governing. The battle flag represents the more noble ideals of the Old South. Not the darker underbelly of its history.

The rest of you may now go knee jerk yourselves into oblivion.</FONT c>

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If you build it, they will come.

[SisterTaffy]

I had the pleasure of growing up in the Old South and living there for 31 long years. The confederate flag issue should have been lain to rest long ago. Take it from a native Georgian, in the Bible Belt that flag does not stand for "pride and heritage" by the majority of the people. The only ones who so proudly wore that flag on their shirts, flew them from their homes, or placed it on their bumper were unadulterated white trash. NEVER in 31 years did I meet a single soul who screamed for protection of that flag did they once mention "heritage". Trust me on this.

The typical bumber sticker in GA. that carried the image of the flag in question was prefixed with "Had I know it would turn out like this I'd have picked my own cotton - SAVE OUR FLAG". Need I add that the cars were usually one week away from going on cinder blocks in a front yard somewhere?

I had a next door neighor, good God fearing Christian, raised that flag every day and called all of the African Amercians "Boy and Gal" (that was when he was feeling charitable) When his daughter began dating a non-white man, my neighbors *friends* set the flag on fire. My neighbor cast his daughter to the street.

Poor white trash? Not this is the exception, he lived in a $400K home. Rich white trash.

As for the swastika it too deserves to be preserved and saved, just like the Confederate flag, BUT IN A MUSEUM. Those are two symbols that promote an antagonistic attitude even if it is intended or not.

How could anyone feel that the "cross" is a symbol of hatred. Why, die-hard Christians, especially in the South, willbe the first to tell you that they love everyone. They are the most accepting, tolerant people you will eveer meet. Just ask one and they will tell you as much. So long as you are a WASP and have a closed mind to diversity or change.

Praise the lord.



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The Foremost Authority On All Things Biblical (http://www.sistertaffy.com) .

[Faceplant]

alright...because i grew up in Texas, born/rasied for 14 years of my life, and the confederacy is a part of my family history, your insulting it, because your only ignorant enough to understand the meaning that you were taught to know.

calling the confederate flag racist, 'midnight hangings', which is the most foolish things ive ever heard, and whatever else you said, is like hating someone because there black.

and the confederate flag, which was flown at the civil war, wasnt about hanging negro's and deep racism. indeed it was about slavery, but not only for blacks, there are other minorities in the world pal.

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<IMG SRC="http://www.geocities.com/ctbubba77/hershiny.jpg" border=0>

[SisterTaffy]

Personally, I don't consider the flag itself racist. I do, however, know that in GA. any pride of heritage associated with it has been ruined. The Klan, White Supremists, and other groups dating back to the 1800's have desytroyed the historic connection. IMO.

Sad when something that *should* represent a era in time that brought about monumnetal change has been distorted to represent something totally different.


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The Foremost Authority On All Things Biblical (http://www.sistertaffy.com) .

[Faceplant]

yes, the representation did indeed ruin it..thats why fools dont understand it.

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<IMG SRC="http://www.geocities.com/ctbubba77/3rdcsa_ani.gif" border=0>

[Stevo]

I went to sleep before you replied again muffy, but those are good points. It's not apathy that i suffer from, i just dont think that my opinions are any better than a racist. I just respect everyone's right to have a different opinion. I also respect yours. I can tell you dont feel this way just because it's popular. All i was saying is that, the confederate flag has never reminded me of linchings and hate toward blacks. I've always seen it as a sign of the south, a brief moment in my countries history that i think is fascinating. When i said "first hand" I mean exactly that. You might have SIMILAR issues in your country but i can't accept everything you say as valid to this situation because i'm almost positive you haven't been fully briefed on the history or the current situation.

All i'm saying, is that minorities need to stop being so sensitive. I asked my buddy glenn who happens to be black and i loved his point ov view. He said he couldn't care less, that it was in the past. Hmm... maybe it's not because he's black but because he's a nice sensible republican. heh.

[morgana]

<font color="lime">i've read through this entire thread, and learned alot of stuff i didn't know about the history of the south, the civil war, and the rebel flag. you people really know your stuff.


but what about those who haven't been educated?

i think that you're all forgetting something: almost everyone in america isn't aware of this history. they have been taught a different version. they have been taught that the rebel flag is a symbol of hatred. so tell me: if you want to keep your flag, do you want to stop at every house in the south and teach them it's history? you may say "it's their own fault if they're too stupid to learn about what it really means". but is it? school books, teachers, television, movies, and the rednecks in their hometown have always stated the opposite. so why hold it against them? why do you still insist on putting it on display on a courthouse? they never said you couldn't keep it on your porch. they are taking it off of the state's buildings and insignias. does germany still use the swastika in its flag? how about their state buildings? i wouldn't think so.

you're acting like they're telling you that you can never have it again. they didn't ban it, they just took it down from display.

you say that it's a symbol of your heritage, and that you should be able to display it wherever you want. ok. what would happen if you went to visit a native american, and they had the bloody scalp of your great-great grandmother decorating their wall. their great-great grandfather scalped her, after he killed her husband. but, it's a part of his heritage, his history. would you be offended?


if it only upset a few people, i could understand. but what you have to understand is that alot of people have been using your flag as a symbol of hate against others. when that happens, it's time for it to fade into the past, until the history can be retaught.

just my two cents.


</font>

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adapt, or be eaten by the beast...

[This message has been edited by morgana (edited 02-04-2001).]

[Faceplant]

its a flag...not a burning cross you fucking fools.

a flag that represents something..herritage, and history..for me..

i display it..i have the 2 bumper stickers on my chevy..and i have 2 flags on my truck...so it aint banned...i just dont think it should be taken down from a state cause a minority bitched about...you dont have to recognize it, or love it.

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<IMG SRC="http://www.geocities.com/ctbubba77/3rdcsa_ani.gif" border=0>

[MuffyTheVampyreLayer]

I can understand where you are coming from Stevo, I am not trying to accuse you personally of wanting to promote racism, but I do think that perhaps the fact that I am NOT American just gives me a slightly more objective view. As I already stated, if people associate the flag purely with the heritage of the South, I don't have a problem with that. As far as flags go, I actully think it looks really cool, and (no offence everyone), I think the currently used American flag has far TOO many stars and stripes and is kind of an eye full (purely from an aesthetic point of view).
That being said, I return to my original query regarding the promotion of ideas through symbolism. Now you have made it clear that you do not associate this symbol with racism and slavery, that is really good, and it shows that you know more about it's history than the majority. But the problem is, that many others are either too ignorant not to take this waving of this flag as a sign of approval of racism, will exploit the opportunity to promote racism if they think history will give them legitimacy, or if they are like myself, just have many inbuilt triggers which are symbol associated.

OK - I just want to make it as clear as possible that the issue really is not the flag, the flag is just a design, printed on fabric or cloth, how could anyone have a problem with that? It is the associations with it. Be they wrong, judgemental, or just plain foolish, the reality is that the associations are there which is why it is reasonable to assume that some may view the flag as a symbol of racial propaganda.

Sorry to drag this up from another thread, but I think it was bloody beautifully said, and explains a lot about the position on the flag.

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by morgana:
<font color="lime">Let us look at another symbol, thousands of years old. until the twentieth century, this symbol was a bastion of love and light. it represented the cycle of life for many people. it was utilized by almost every culture of the world. it, along with the solar cross, was a tool of measurement for farmers, a calendar of sorts to measure seasons and weather. and then, hitler came along...

the swastika.


excerpt taken from this source:
http://www.locksley.com/6696/swastick.htm

"Nazi Germany took an ancient symbol and perverted it to such a degree that it can never be used again without bringing up all the associations of death, destruction, hatred and vileness that the NSDAP perpetrated. If the Swasticka is displayed in any of the "civilized" parts of the earth, the reactions of the viewer are universally of rage and disgust. This perversion of "right" may be one of the prime evils of the Nazis; they took patriotism, honorable military service and its associated ritual, chivalry, and the concept of "völkish," among so many other good and useful things, and perverted them into something so bad, so evil and vile, that to call a person a "Nazi" is one of the most terrible epithets a human can use. "


would any of you put a swastika on your car? even though for centuries it was a symbol of life and completion, it is now widely viewed by all walks of life as a reminder of the heinous perpetrations of a lunatic and his followers. a once proud, peaceful sign has been perverted into a sigil of hate. the same is true of the confederate flag. yes, it is a sign of heritage. but sometimes these things have to be laid to the side, until a time when people gain an understanding of their REAL heritage. i understand that the swastika was just a tool of hitler, but does the rest of the world? until we reach a higher level of enlightenment, until people take the time to learn about something, rather than react on their first knee-jerk impulses, many treasures of our history will be lost to us.

teach your children the correct the truth of these things, unbiased by hatred and contempt for those that do not understand. that is the first step to correcting these errors.


</font>

[/quote]
(Thanks Morgana, I think that was bloody well put)

Now I am perfectly aware of the history of the swastika, but when I see one, I think NAZI - and my blood boils, and I think that is how some must feel about the flag.

And, to end this rant, this thread seems to have degenerated in to whining about minority groups getting pissed off at being persecuted.

What kind of a fucking argument is that???!!!?!?!?!

Who cares if they are minority groups (sorry if that statement offends anyone) - Fuck, I dont give a shit whether someone is black, white, green or purple, popular or minority - the point is that they are people, not a fucking class or category (although I fully support being culturally involved and aware) - no PERSON deserves to be opressed - that has nothing to do with their ethnicity!!! (Except kiddyfuckers, that 'class' of people can all fuck off and die) - but anyway, don't make this in to an argument about minority groups whinging, because that really is not the point now is it.

Not all of that was directed at you Stevo.





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Bite me.

[Stevo]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>
but anyway, don't make this in to an argument about minority groups whinging, because that really is not the point now is it.
[/quote]

This couldn't be LESS true. The majority (white.. cracker.. call it what you will..) isn't protesting at all.

[MuffyTheVampyreLayer]

Yeah, I think you kind of missed my point (I shouldn't rant before my morning coffee http://www.thehypertribe.net/ubb/biggrin.gif). I know that it is a minority number which has a problem, the majority don't really care, we already established this. My point was that you can not dismiss minority group views (whether it be gays, asians, tree huggers) simply because they are a minority group. They are people, their views are just as valid as anyone elses, collectively they form a minority, but that is not necessarily the best way to determine whether their view is right or wrong now is it?

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Bite me.

[MuffyTheVampyreLayer]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by RogueWarrior:

A viewpoint based in ignorance and illogic cannot be given the same weight as one that is rational and sensible. Some factions are minorities for the simple fact that their viewpoints are bereft of any sense. I refuse to insult those who have validity in their viewpoints by granting equal heft to those who don't.

[/quote]
Yes, but their view points are fucked because they are senseless, not because they are in the minority, yeah? Again, I think my point was missed.

I'm giving up now.

I don't like banging my head against the wall.



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Bite me.

[Koliedrus]

Mrs. Kol spanked me verbally over this topic yesterday so I'll keep out of it for personal reasons.

I will sneak in this comment though:

A flag is just a flag until someone sets it on fire.

I'm done.