Taxation [Archive] - The Hypertribe

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3MTA3

01-27-2001, 08:57 PM

Damnit RW...you are reactionary...just cause the Constitution dosent provide for something dosent mean its Unconstitutional...yer logic is flawed like a bitch...taxation is one of the many implied powers of govt...see Article 1 sec. 8 of the US Contitution for info on Taxing and clause 18 of the aforementioned section for the "elastic clause" that grants these implied powers...

"The power to tax involves the power to destroy." -John Marshall

About Federal Income Taxes...which I fucking hate...personally, I agree they must be paid, what I do not like is the idea that for a certain percentage of every day, I am technically a govt. employee, slaving for them...this pisses me off...that is all...

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gone~away

01-28-2001, 04:36 AM

i think your 'moral high ground' concerning socialism is saddening... i mean really rogue.. what ever happened to tolerance.. perhaps some people dont like the american thought process, myself included.

but on the issue of taxation i think that the protection they provide you, and the services they provide you more than make up for the loss of income.. perhaps you are too shortsighted to realize that without a 'government' you would be a bunch of fucking cave dwellers being bombed by germany. taxation is an irritant.. i know, ive just started paying taxes and have lost fifty bucks this last month.. more coming... it irked me slightly, but i feel proud to live in a country where i can get shot (which i wont, cuz i dont live in america http://www.thehypertribe.net/ubb/biggrin.gif) and go to the hospital and not have the first words out of the nurses mouth be 'cash or medicaid'. Perhaps im a little less jaded than you but i think that the world is not out to get me... politicians arent making that much money... i dont know about there but here, our prime minister only makes 186 000 a year.. approximetely 110 000 american.. doctors make more, lawyers make more... i think that it would take more than that to influence them to 'extort' from you....

are you denying that we need government?? because without taxes you could not pay for them.

and another thing, have you no compassion? I work very hard for minimum wage.. basically my employer is telling me i am worth the absolute minimum that they are allowed to pay me... these people are making thousands of dollars off of my sweat and toil, likely because they were born into wealth... are you saying that even though they are far wealthier than i and can afford more in taxes we should pay the same percentage?? that would leave me on the street because they wouldnt lower taxes for the rich.. they would raise them for the lower classes...

i am happy with the tax system here, i believe it is remarkably similar to there so therefore i am happy with the tax system there...

P.S. you americans are far too dependant on your constitution.. its supposed to be your rights, not your crutch

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Bumox

01-28-2001, 05:05 AM

I say lets drop the current tax system and go to a national sales tax!!

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Pianomahnn

01-28-2001, 05:15 AM

It is my understanding that quite a long time ago, when the United States was still getting its feet wet, the politicians propsed a tax plan. The number was around 8%. And never was the tax going to be allowed to go above this. This didn't pass the the vast majority of the public feared that they government would boost taxes up to meet the 8% limit.

My, how I wish I could travel in time.

The government is stupid with money. There is no reason they need to take 40% of people's hard earned money. Im going to try and do some simple math here.

260 million US citizens.
30% work and make 15,000
The government take 40% of what they make

260m x 30% x $15,000 x 40% = $4,680,000,000,000

So, you're telling me it takes that much money to run a country? I don't think so.

Keep in mind my numbers are "fuzzy." But could still be in the realm of possibility.

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I live on freedom. So should you.

<A HREF="http://"http://www.pianomahnn.com"" TARGET=_blank>Freedom Lives Within</A>

Bumox

01-28-2001, 05:46 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by Pianomahnn:
It is my understanding that quite a long time ago, when the United States was still getting its feet wet, the politicians propsed a tax plan. The number was around 8%. And never was the tax going to be allowed to go above this. This didn't pass the the vast majority of the public feared that they government would boost taxes up to meet the 8% limit.

My, how I wish I could travel in time.

The government is stupid with money. There is no reason they need to take 40% of people's hard earned money. Im going to try and do some simple math here.

260 million US citizens.
30% work and make 15,000
The government take 40% of what they make

260m x 30% x $15,000 x 40% = $4,680,000,000,000

So, you're telling me it takes that much money to run a country? I don't think so.

Keep in mind my numbers are "fuzzy." But could still be in the realm of possibility.

[/quote]

I do agree with you, if the US governmnet was forced to spend on a budget and not have unlimited pool of cash, then a lot of the stupid ass spending would cease. My tax dollar can go to something better than studying the mating rituals of the sea otter. Geez give me break. I much prefer to study the mating rituals of Bumox up close and personal http://www.thehypertribe.net/ubb/biggrin.gif

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3MTA3

01-28-2001, 05:50 AM

Yes...it takes that and more...where the hell have you been?? Do you know how much state of the art fighter jets cost to develop and then build, not to metion the armaments we go through testing and training with the things...then theres tanks and other shit...its all quite costly really, but its for a good cause, that being the assured destruction of our enemies if/when we decide to combat them...so take yer math and shove it nancy boy, this shit is expensive...

About the money politicians make, they get cash and "gifts" from contributions...Id be willing to bet that 100% of American Congressmen make 4 times more money from contributions and gifts than they do from their paycheck...why else would they fight for the top spots on committees?? Really, lets try to think for a sec. GA, instead of just waving around yer horribly uninformed opinion as a banner of stupidity for all to see and cringe from...thanks...

Bumox...really, dont be such a wanker...national sales tax my ass...lets review some rudimentary econ. principles before we debate this(well, before I make you all look stupid I should say)...sales taxes are what type of tax?? Theres only two kinds...come on...ok, Ill tell you, they are "regressive", as opposed to "progressive"...see, regressive means that they effect low income earners more severely than they do high income earners...case in point(Im going to use fuzzy mathematics like so-and-so up there did to illustrate my point)...

Dude A makes $120,000 per year

Dude B makes $15,000 per year

The national sales tax is 10%(Im making it easy for you to follow here)

Dude A and Dude B both consume the same dollar amount of goods for the year, well say $10,000 worth of taxable comodities

Both pay $1,000 in taxes for the year

After tax time, Dude A is sitting pretty with $109,000 in hand

After the tax crunch, Dude B manages to hold on to $4,000

Dude A has payed 0.8% in taxes

Dude B has payed 6% in taxes

Tell me who got fucked?? And now we see how big money interests are driving even the lofty ideals of these self professed "libertarians"...fucking tools...I suggest we all go with the flow untill we figure out the right way to do things...too bad the right way to do things is never cut and dry...like a "flat tax" or some other such nonsense...for fucks sake, when will people learn that a complicated issue requires a complicated solution...I have to stop now as Im about to go off...damn you...all of you...

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[This message has been edited by 3MTA3 (edited 01-28-2001).]

Pianomahnn

01-28-2001, 06:05 AM

I was going to say something important, but I finished reading your post 3MTA3 and no I've forgotten it all. http://www.thehypertribe.net/ubb/mad.gif

Congressmen, Senators, HORs, etc. do not pay into social security. They have their own little fund. When they retire they make exactly what they were making when the retired for the rest of their lives. Hmmm...tax dollars hard at work.

You can't tell me the government spends its money wisely. Many businessmen, economsists, smart people have said that if the US government were a business, it would have gone under long ago. That says something about how things are run, does it not?

I understand Military expenditures are costly, but do we really need troops in everyone's back door? No. Let them solve their own little troubles, and if it gets really ugly, then we kill them all, and the problem solved. (yes that was uneducated and stupid, I can't be smart all the time http://www.thehypertribe.net/ubb/biggrin.gif ).

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I live on freedom. So should you.

Freedom Lives Within (http://www.pianomahnn.com)

Bumox

01-28-2001, 08:39 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by 3MTA3:
Yes...it takes that and more...where the hell have you been?? Do you know how much state of the art fighter jets cost to develop and then build, not to metion the armaments we go through testing and training with the things...then theres tanks and other shit...its all quite costly really, but its for a good cause, that being the assured destruction of our enemies if/when we decide to combat them...so take yer math and shove it nancy boy, this shit is expensive...

About the money politicians make, they get cash and "gifts" from contributions...Id be willing to bet that 100% of American Congressmen make 4 times more money from contributions and gifts than they do from their paycheck...why else would they fight for the top spots on committees?? Really, lets try to think for a sec. GA, instead of just waving around yer horribly uninformed opinion as a banner of stupidity for all to see and cringe from...thanks...

Bumox...really, dont be such a wanker...national sales tax my ass...lets review some rudimentary econ. principles before we debate this(well, before I make you all look stupid I should say)...sales taxes are what type of tax?? Theres only two kinds...come on...ok, Ill tell you, they are "regressive", as opposed to "progressive"...see, regressive means that they effect low income earners more severely than they do high income earners...case in point(Im going to use fuzzy mathematics like so-and-so up there did to illustrate my point)...

Dude A makes $120,000 per year

Dude B makes $15,000 per year

The national sales tax is 10%(Im making it easy for you to follow here)

Dude A and Dude B both consume the same dollar amount of goods for the year, well say $10,000 worth of taxable comodities

Both pay $1,000 in taxes for the year

After tax time, Dude A is sitting pretty with $109,000 in hand

After the tax crunch, Dude B manages to hold on to $4,000

Dude A has payed 0.8% in taxes

Dude B has payed 6% in taxes

Tell me who got fucked?? And now we see how big money interests are driving even the lofty ideals of these self professed "libertarians"...fucking tools...I suggest we all go with the flow untill we figure out the right way to do things...too bad the right way to do things is never cut and dry...like a "flat tax" or some other such nonsense...for fucks sake, when will people learn that a complicated issue requires a complicated solution...I have to stop now as Im about to go off...damn you...all of you...

[/quote]

I respectfully disagree with that logic because as my momma always told me don't spend beyond your means.

the 120,000 a year dude is going to feel more cocky about spending because he has more to spend... The 15,000 a year dude is going to be more conservitive about spending... (in theory)... If the 15,000 dude wants to try to compete with the Jones's and spend himself into bankruptcy, then that is his problem. I break it down to you another way... My spending habits is very tiny compared to someone like ahhhhhh Bill Gates. It would all depends on the person and how they budget their money.

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Mudflap

01-28-2001, 05:38 PM

Here is an excerpt from The Federal Mafia by Irwin Schiff:

There are a number of reasons why our income tax must be voluntary. Here are a few of them:

1. A compulsory income tax would violate all three taxing clauses of the Constitution, and would be unconstitutional on this basis alone.

2. The inquisitorial nature of income tax would be repugnant to both the letter and spirit of the Bill of Rights -- and the government could extract such a tax only by disregarding the first Ten and other amendments.

3. A compulsory income tax would also be violative of the 16th Amendment -- the very Amendment which allegedly gave rise to the current tax.

4. Since nowhere in the [Internal Revenue] Code is the word "income" defined, (Remember an "income tax" is a tax on "income," not on its sources) how can a valid law presume to tax an abstract accounting concept which the law itself does not (and can not) define? -- and which Congress does not have the authority to define?

5. The "law" applicable to income taxes is so incomprehensible that even tax professionals have to rely on a myriad of tax services to explain it. Thus, pursuant to a fundamental legal principle known to every law student, a compulsory income tax would hqave to be declared -- by any court of integrity --"void for vagueness."

<marquee>Great topic RW.</marquee>
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If you build it, they will come.

[This message has been edited by Mudflap (edited 01-28-2001).]

Mudflap

01-30-2001, 02:32 AM

The apparent apathy on this subject is disheartening.

Earl J. Teeman, an electrician from Ohio was murdered by Brazilian bandits in 1979 after he fled the U.S. following his illegal conviction of failing to file income tax returns.

Jack and Wanda Biggers of Houston, Texas, killed themselves in February 1987 after the IRS illegally seized and sold their home.

Everett O. Lasher of Seattle, Washington, shot himself in Tax Court after being told that he was going to be (illegally) fined $5,000 for raising "frivolous" arguments before that "court."

While these four Americans did not die in concentration camps or in some Siberian gulag, their deaths were not entirely dissimilar from those who did.

The United States is a great country, but let's not delude ourselves into believing that our Federal Government is looking out for it's citizens. We are being unjustly extorted everyday. If I were a billionaire, I would take on the government in an effort to halt the continuing unlawful taxation of the American public.

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If you build it, they will come.

Pianomahnn

01-30-2001, 02:49 AM

You may say that now, mudflap, but you wouldn't if you were really in that situation. You wouldn't pay attention to the things us "common" folk do.

The only way to solve some problems is to elect middle-class citizens to an office. The politicians that are in there now have been corrupt from years and years of living the life. You get a person who's workd his/her ass off for what they have, and they'll do a damn good job with this Country.

I need to go now...I WILL post more...

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I live on freedom. So should you.

Freedom Lives Within (http://www.pianomahnn.com)

Mudflap

01-30-2001, 03:17 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by Pianomahnn:
You may say that now, mudflap, but you wouldn't if you were really in that situation. You wouldn't pay attention to the things us "common" folk do.
NEVER presume you know what I would or would not do in ANY given situation.

The only way to solve some problems is to elect middle-class citizens to an office. The politicians that are in there now have been corrupt from years and years of living the life. You get a person who's worked his/her ass off for what they have, and they'll do a damn good job with this Country.
You'll get no arguement from me on this one.

I need to go now...I WILL post more...
You say that now....heh heh!

[/quote]

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If you build it, they will come.

[This message has been edited by Mudflap (edited 01-29-2001).]

Princess_Heather

01-30-2001, 03:33 AM

This is how I view taxation:

I used moan and groan about the $$$ deducted from my paycheck every 2 weeks. I'd think about all I could DO with that money... Then April would come along, and as if I hadn't coughed up enough dough already, Uncle Sam would demand more. *grumble grumble grumble*

So I tried to find a positive point of view, besides the obvious fact that w/ out taxes the US would be even more fucked up than it already is... As long as everyone is forced to pay taxes, the money taken away is [should be] equally detrimental to EVERYONE'S income and thus their financial level. With out taxes, everyone would have the same increase in income and everyone would have some extra cash at the end of the month and things would be slightly more expensive and I would therefore be no better off than I am now. In fact, the extra money wouldn't even seem like extra. I would spend it just like I spend my reduced paychecks now and not even pay attention to what "not taxes" is saving me. The rich would still be rich, the poor be poor and the middle be average.

The only way "no taxes" would benefit my check book would be IF I was the only person in the country that didn't have to pay taxes which is not in the least bit feasible.

That is why I no longer care about the amount of money taken from my annual income.

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................Red On The Head... Fire In The Hole...
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[This message has been edited by Princess_Heather (edited 01-29-2001).]

Pianomahnn

01-30-2001, 03:56 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by Mudflap:

NEVER presume you know what I would or would not do in ANY given situation.
[/quote]

I say that only because you wouldn't be you if you were a billionaire. FAR too many things in your life would have shaped you differently. You are who you are now because of what you've gone through, your life experiences have shaped you so that you see these things. But when you're a billionaire, shit, you've got everything you need. Why would you want to do something you don't really need to.

This is one of those, IF I HAD THIS kind of things. No one knows what they would do if they had that, and I could be way off, but I don't think I am.

Money changes people, that is for sure. Get a few billion dollars and you'll care more about your Yacht than anything else.

IMHO!! http://www.thehypertribe.net/ubb/biggrin.gif

Damnit, I hate school. SO MUCH HOMEWORK!! And not enough time to form a well rounded response. Damnit to hell and back!

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I live on freedom. So should you.

Freedom Lives Within (http://www.pianomahnn.com)

Pianomahnn

01-30-2001, 03:59 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by Princess_Heather:

That is why I no longer care about the amount of money taken from my annual income.
[/quote]

Reason #1 why the taxes keep going up. The population seems to not give a shit about their money.

Hmmmm...someone steals a few hundred dollars from your purse, and you're pissed off. The government steals a few thousand and you turn the other cheek. Interesting...

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I live on freedom. So should you.

Freedom Lives Within (http://www.pianomahnn.com)

Princess_Heather

01-30-2001, 04:09 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by Pianomahnn:

Reason #1 why the taxes keep going up. The population seems to not give a shit about their money.

Hmmmm...someone steals a few hundred dollars from your purse, and you're pissed off. The government steals a few thousand and you turn the other cheek. Interesting...

[/quote]

As if one bitching rant from me to the gov't about the money they jack is gonna do anything...

I don't care because alone I have no power and don't have the time and energy to organize yet another group of angry overtaxed gripers that will just be ignored and shooed away like the rest of them.

I don't look at it as stealing anymore. I look at it as a donation.

RW - no I am not drunk, I am still hungover and doped up on vicodin. And NO I do not know a god damn thing about economics nor to I give a damp rats ass.

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................Red On The Head... Fire In The Hole...
<IMG SRC="http://public1.collegeclub.com/MatchUPictures/1661/pic_421661.gif" border=0> 

[This message has been edited by Princess_Heather (edited 01-29-2001).]

Pianomahnn

01-30-2001, 04:18 AM

A damp rats ass.

Now that's no way for a young lady to speak. Shame on you! http://www.thehypertribe.net/ubb/tongue.gif

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I live on freedom. So should you.

Freedom Lives Within (http://www.pianomahnn.com)

Princess_Heather

01-30-2001, 04:34 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by Pianomahnn:
A damp rats ass.

Now that's no way for a young lady to speak. Shame on you! http://www.thehypertribe.net/ubb/tongue.gif

[/quote]

I ain't no lady.

I'm a FLAMING fucking FAIRY Princess...

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................Red On The Head... Fire In The Hole...
<IMG SRC="http://public1.collegeclub.com/MatchUPictures/1661/pic_421661.gif" border=0> 

[This message has been edited by Princess_Heather (edited 01-29-2001).]

Princess_Heather

01-30-2001, 04:45 AM

This is related to taxes...

<IMG SRC="http://a1708.g.akamai.net/7/1708/179/1db05cf7e0e613/www.pch.com/images/wincircle/1_28_10mm1.jpg" border=0>

LOL!

"Wilbur Ervin Jr - Baltimore, MD Area

Wilbur Ervin, Jr. was the biggest winner on January 28th. That's when he got the surprise of his life and became our newest $10,000,000.00 winner!

The Prize Patrol's own Dave Sayer personally presented Wilbur with the $10,000,000.00 SuperPrize! Wilbur's life will never be the same! "

Criteria For Winning The Publisher's Clearing House Sweepstakes:
1) Must be white trash
2) Must be likely to answer the door in bath robe or without a shirt
3) Must watch the "Price is Right" on a daily basis
4) Must be OLD and near death so you can't collect prize money for more than 10 years.
5) Must either live in a town/state nobody has EVER heard about or just look like you do.

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................Red On The Head... Fire In The Hole...
<IMG SRC="http://public1.collegeclub.com/MatchUPictures/1661/pic_421661.gif" border=0> 

[This message has been edited by Princess_Heather (edited 01-29-2001).]

Cruise Director

01-30-2001, 05:00 AM

So, I filled out my lovely tax forms today.
Good news:
I will be receiving a little over $600.00 from the Feds. A little ove $300.00 from my wonderful state.

Bad News:
I paid a total of over $13,000.00 to get it.

Freedom at any cost ?

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Jesus Christ died for my sins, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt.

Mudflap

01-30-2001, 12:00 PM

Princess Heather is wearing her apathy and ignorance like a badge of honor. Her attitude is prevalent throughout the citizens of our nation. It makes me sad to be constantly surrounded by a bunch of complacent idiots. http://www.thehypertribe.net/ubb/frown.gif 

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If you build it, they will come.

Dog Breath

01-30-2001, 03:04 PM

Speaking out against the IRS is like cursing at the "brown shirts" in Nazi Germany. The similarity is there.
There are so many illegal powers afforded them most are happy to grumble under their breath.

I support a national sales tax. I think it would initially cause some pains in our economy with shockwaves running from the corporations to Joe sixpack and back a few times but it would all settle out.
It is a pipe dream though. We would need much more conservatism in America for it to work. You would have to avoid the seemingly small increases in the percentage to pay for this or that and "exemptions" for Non profit or Corporate America. You would also be paying up-front for Stocks and bonds whether you made money or not.

In short. Yes the tax system is screwed and there are better ways of doing it. To make it work however, you need to pull some well rooted weeds.

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Woof.
Scratching at the eyes of societal normalcy.
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Stevo

01-30-2001, 06:30 PM

am i the only american who doesn't mind paying taxes?

Mudflap

01-30-2001, 08:13 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by Stevo:
am i the only american who doesn't mind paying taxes?[/quote]

No. I don't mind paying my fair share of taxes, however, that is not the case. We are all being taxed in direct opposition to the Constitution. If that doesn't bother you, then you are an AssFace.

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If you build it, they will come.

Stevo

01-31-2001, 04:15 AM

clever?

Dog Breath

01-31-2001, 04:09 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by Stevo:
clever?[/quote]

I think so.

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Woof.
Scratching at the eyes of societal normalcy.
<IMG SRC="http://sites.netscape.net/mydogbreath/htribe.gif" border=0>

3MTA3

02-01-2001, 06:00 AM

Ok...I guess Ill apologise for being such a wanker...my bad GA...Im sorry...

Call me a devotee of Machiavelli but I find it extremely effective to humiliate my "opponents" after chinking their armor...maybe I shouldnt always go in for the kill...

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