Catch-911

[Koliedrus]

This is a difficult topic for me to sort out. I've been preaching the PGP gospel for years but as you will read in this article (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A1234-2001Sep20.html) , even Phil Zimmermann is intellectually and emotionally torn.

What you will find in that article is an unwritten testimony as to the strength of PGP encryption and the resultant side effects that supporters of free speech (myself included) saw as a negligable possibility.

A tool meant for GOOD may have been used against us.

It's been suggested that Phil was laughed at when he won his legal battles since the intelligence community could easily decrypt encoded messages if needed. In fact, that assumption actually increased my support for PGP.

Now, I'm not so sure what to think. Before the 11th, a back-door was out of the question in my mind. The government already has enough records on everyone in the US. Why should love-letters to my wife be included in my hypothetical file? Why should they give a shit about the contents of anything I've written? None of it deals with aspects of national security.

Apparently the encryption routines are more powerful than I thought. If PGP was instrumental in the destruction we've recently experienced, it may become necessary to cooperate by volunteering a back-door on an individual basis.

Raped of privacy or raped of life...

Catch-22 has come of age.

Post your opinions. Perhaps we can come up with a vialble solution.

If you haven't posted here for whatever reason;

<FONT size="5">GET IN HERE AND THINK!!!</FONT s>

Set aside some time for this topic before you reply.


(edit: trivial stuff)
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May fortune favor the foolish.

[This message has been edited by Koliedrus (edited 09-23-2001).]

[TotalAnarchy]

Shit. So the terrorists used the freedom offered in PGP to send almost unbreakable (nothing is completely unbreakable, not if you have enough shit to brute force it) messages to co-ordinate the attack. Shit. Catch 22 is a mild way of describing it. So you have a choice, as far as I can see

1 - You can keep your freedom but put yours and others safety at risk. That risk may have been negligable before. So was terrorists using planes as flying suicide bombs. And look what happened. And look how they think they did it.

2 - You can lose your freedom (either by giving your PGP number to the relevant authorities) or some other means. In the name of security.

What is the price of freedom? Last time I checked it was 6333 people missing. I dont think anyone else is comming out. Someone has to pay the butchers bill, and in this day and age, its usually the innocent. How things change and yet stay the same. Is there a compromise? Yes. Both your freedom and security are compromised. Its a slide. Push it one way, you lose the other. What do you choose? Me, I choose security, simply as I dont want peoples blood on my hands. Especially knowing that if I went the other way, it could be prevented. Greater watch over our lives? To a point, yes. What that point is? I'm not too sure yet. But times are a changing. And we need to keep up. Or we will be thrown on the trash heap of history.

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<IMG SRC="http://a9.cpimg.com/image/63/E2/5744739-4aac-01DD006C-.jpg" border=0>
"who are these? Why sit they in twilight?
Wherefore rock they, purgatorial shadows,
Drooping tongues from jaws that slob their relish,
Baring teeth that leer like skulls' teeth wicked?
Stroke on stroke of pain, -but what slow panic
Gouged these chasms round their fretted sockets?
Ever from their hair and through their hands' palms
Misery swelters. Surely we have perished
Sleeping, and walk in hell; but who these hellish?"

[Escape Artist]

No.

I said it.

I'll not have my liberties, freedom and the choice I hold in my hand to use it taken away.

People died, yes. They didn't die because Mr. John Doe of 2792 Assmaster Ave. was using PGP, however. They didn't die because everyone wasn't allowing gov't officials to decrypt the things they wrote.

It's much like the gun outlaw issue...outlaw guns and the people with them will be outlaws. PGP's quite available now, sans backdoor...what makes you think that because, say, from this point on, there will be backdoors, that said terrorists, criminals and the like will actually USE the one with backdoors? It seems that they can just as easily grab the various copies that exist now and use them.

Secondly...the only country that would be under this rule is the U.S.

Last time I checked, the majority of terrorists, criminals and other people AREN'T IN the U.S. The countries they're in could give a fuck less about what the U.S. wants.

It's not going to help. You can't eradicate a program, nor can you eradicate means of hiding information. If the government truly wanted to get rid of the shit that causes terrorism in the first place, they'd do it right...but, from what I see, this kind of bullshit will be fairly rampant in the future.


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<FONT COLOR="Orange"><FONT size="-2">
Jailbait©
</FONT c></FONT s>

[mute]

funny, i've never heard of PGP till recently...

there's so many things people have created that kill people...

if this PGP will aid the 'terroists', then the U.S. should start finding a way to decode yes hmmm?

i don't know much about PGP, so... ummm, should i have replied?

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[skalie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by Mute:


i don't know much about PGP, so... ummm, should i have replied?

[/quote]

Yes.

Um, is it correct to assume that the current version of PGP has no back doors, and the subsequent versions will?

[Back Tick]

Heres the thing.

Boeing has ceated aircraft, they have been used in a way that was unexpected and detrimental to the world.

Should Boeing make their aircraft completely useless? If they had made smaller gas tanks and forced the aircraft to hop from airport to airport, then the explosions would have been less damaging, and the fires would not have melted the infrastructure of the towers, lives would have been saved.

the answer is no.

Many sporting good companies make such things as hockey sticks and baseball bats, many companies exist that make hand tools. All of these can be misused and cause harm, and death. Should they be made useless?

the answer is no.

Automobile companies make vehicles that can be used effectively as murdering tools. Should they be modified to have a top speed of 15 miles per hour, which many pedestrians could avoid if the need arises? It would save lives.

the answer is no.

A moderately decent company has created an application of a semi-strong encryption algorithm that allows us to communicate in a way that stops others from listening in. It has been misused. Should it be changed in a way to make it completely ineffective? Should we outlaw whispering?

the answer is a resounding no.

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Just because some of us can read and write and do a little math, that doesn't mean we deserve to conquer the Universe.

[TotalAnarchy]

As I said, it is a trade of between security and freedom. You chose not to have as much security in the name of freedom. Thats your choice. The thing is, people will start accepting security over freedom more and more. security cameras. Facial recognition policy. Zero tolerance policing. Fingerprint technology, and DNA testing becomming more and more common. Drug testing for employees. Its all on the same tune. Just different forms...............

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<IMG SRC="http://a9.cpimg.com/image/63/E2/5744739-4aac-01DD006C-.jpg" border=0>
"who are these? Why sit they in twilight?
Wherefore rock they, purgatorial shadows,
Drooping tongues from jaws that slob their relish,
Baring teeth that leer like skulls' teeth wicked?
Stroke on stroke of pain, -but what slow panic
Gouged these chasms round their fretted sockets?
Ever from their hair and through their hands' palms
Misery swelters. Surely we have perished
Sleeping, and walk in hell; but who these hellish?"

[MAC]

Beware the hypocrisy that brews in this.

Thia is the same point of origin as gun-control.
I DO NOT believe I am safer if they take away my guns...nor my PGP.
But thats my opinion.

I am assuming I can be responsible for my belongings and actions.

I also believe I can live among other free people with minimal conflict.

I go back to the first man to raise a stick as a club.
That wasn't fair or neceassary under the old rules.
Suddenly the natural order was off set.
Well here we are.

I do not blame anyone for creating something new.
I do hold accountable everyone who uses it.

A situation was created, in this instance, where a group of people had the desire to do this.
They utilized everything at their disposal to accomplish their goal.

We need to concentrate on WHY they did it and what we can do to prevent that line of action again.

We are cutting off limbs to keep people from killing our tree...




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Don't shake the devil's hand and say you're only kidding.

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[TotalAnarchy]

Everyone having guns is like MAD on a smaller, more random scale. If everyone has a gun, the goodies and the crims, then we can be safe in the knowledge that an attack would produce massive recriminations.

That is not the best concept I have ever heard of. We, as a people, need to have the equivilant of SALT I and II talks, to reduce and limit the deployment of guns. Perhaps someting along the lines of a non proliferation treaty. but in law. I dont know.

Just trying to explain it in good old Cold War talk for all you old Cold Warriors out there who think, instaid of the Russians, the NWO is comming.

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<IMG SRC="http://a9.cpimg.com/image/63/E2/5744739-4aac-01DD006C-.jpg" border=0>
"who are these? Why sit they in twilight?
Wherefore rock they, purgatorial shadows,
Drooping tongues from jaws that slob their relish,
Baring teeth that leer like skulls' teeth wicked?
Stroke on stroke of pain, -but what slow panic
Gouged these chasms round their fretted sockets?
Ever from their hair and through their hands' palms
Misery swelters. Surely we have perished
Sleeping, and walk in hell; but who these hellish?"

[Cruise Director]

Damn you, Kol ! For making me think this early in my morning.

<FONT COLOR="cruisedirector"> WE MUST TAKE AWAY PGP FOR NATIONAL SECURITY REASONS ! </FONT c>

You want National Security? Last I checked, all of the suspects being held are being held due to INS violations. That means they are not citizens that were using PGP. That means they were here illegaly. Tighten up the border. And yes, Canada, this means you too. One of these bastards was collecting welfare in Canada. I don't use PGP yet. I have nothing really important that needs to be masked. I do, however, support the rights of American citizens to use such programs without Big Brother looking over my shoulder.

I'm not willing to give up the freedoms that my lazy, American ass has had when what we need to do is watch the damned border.

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[AcidzCraze]

<FONT COLOR="blue">Wow. A good topic indeed.

It is apparant that we are not dealing with idiots here. Do you think it was a coincidence that they used a program so relevent to what America takes pride in... our freedom?

No. Its adding insult to injury. Not only are they going to take out a building so vital -- not only to our country, but to the world -- but they are going to mock us by using freedom-enhancing technology we fought to have.

We would play straight into their hands if we acted on the first reaction we have.

"Take it off! This technology is the cause of all of this!"

By this logic, (I'm going to futher the gun control point here) we should not allow Walmart to sell hunting riffles anymore.

Why? Because people are shot down with guns. Since Walmart sells them, that means that they condone, AND enable people to hurt others via gun violence.

That would be an irrational decision prompted by fear.

People kill people. Not guns. If we didn't have guns, it would just be done another way.

The inevitable is simply that... *inevitable*.

The backdoor is not going to bring back life, or blur the image of the falling WTC that has been burned into our minds.

If we allow the back-door then we are just playing right into their hands. Giving up what they want us to give up.

Fuck that. </FONT c>

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"Reality is that which when you stop believing it, it doesn't go away" -Philip K. Dick

[mute]

is this relevant?

say the man who made the first gun could see how it is now, would he still go on making guns?

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<IMG SRC="http://www.escape000.f2s.com/mogs.gif" border=0>

[Goatboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by RogueWarrior:
Of course it's relevant.

The man who invented the wheel was wracked to death. The man who invented fire was burned at the stake for heresy.

*snip* More of same
[/quote]

<FONT COLOR="Red">WTF???</FONT c>

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How you lived up to your name;
Rogue, you dog.
Putting Internet bitches on the game?
What a pimp. Tired of being God?
In your own little forum.
No more respect for you.

[3MTA3]

Hi...Id like to quote 8-Ball from Full Metal Jacket if I may...

"They'd rather be alive than free, I guess. Poor dumb bastards."

Fuck you if you say otherwise...I dont like you and I never liked you...I never liked you...


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[insert lame quote/comment here]