On the astonishing ignorance of the American people. . .

[squee]

From a link that Kayla posted:

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>THAT IS CRAZY HOW THE HELL DID U KNOW THAT WAS GONNA HAPPEN....? IF U
WERE INVOVLED WITH THOSE TERRORISTS I HOPE U BURN IN HELL FOREVER.
THE UNITED STATES IS GOING TO KICK SOME TERRORIST ASS THOUGH ONCE THEY
FIND OUT WHICH GROUP IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS. HEED MY WARNING
TERRORISTS BITCHES YOU'RE DEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
AND YOUR GOING TO GO TO HELL!!! INNOCENT PEOPLE SHOUD NOT BE KILLED
JUST BECAUSE SOME ASSHOLES DON'T LIKE DEMOCRACY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/quote]

I am continually amazed at how very little Americans understand the rest of the world, and to a lesser degree how little the rest of the world understands us. I think it's time for some serious education into the state of things...you want to begin, Rogue, or should I? Keeping in mind that the nature of my work prevents me from saying certain things...

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Non sibi sed patriae
Non nobis Domine, Domine! ...Sed nomine Tuo da gloriam!

[Kayla]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by squee:
From a link that Kayla posted:

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>THAT IS CRAZY HOW THE HELL DID U KNOW THAT WAS GONNA HAPPEN....? IF U
WERE INVOVLED WITH THOSE TERRORISTS I HOPE U BURN IN HELL FOREVER.
THE UNITED STATES IS GOING TO KICK SOME TERRORIST ASS THOUGH ONCE THEY
FIND OUT WHICH GROUP IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS. HEED MY WARNING
TERRORISTS BITCHES YOU'RE DEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
AND YOUR GOING TO GO TO HELL!!! INNOCENT PEOPLE SHOUD NOT BE KILLED
JUST BECAUSE SOME ASSHOLES DON'T LIKE DEMOCRACY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/quote]

I am continually amazed at how very little Americans understand the rest of the world, and to a lesser degree how little the rest of the world understands us. I think it's time for some serious education into the state of things...you want to begin, Rogue, or should I? Keeping in mind that the nature of my work prevents me from saying certain things...

[/quote]


Skeet posted it origionally...please give him credit


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<FONT COLOR="blue">What do you love?</FONT c>
<FONT COLOR="orange"><FONT size="1">Jailbait®</FONT c></FONT s>

[Skeet]

werd

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Soon to come, something that means nothing...
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Forbidden Compounds (http://www.forbiddencompounds.com/)

[Mr. Snrub]

Well, personally, I'm looking for hot fiery death to whomever perpetrated this.

But on the other hand, I must admit I was shocked at the scale of the disaster, not that it was perpetrated.

Didn't Tom Clancy write about something like this?

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[Nutrimentia]

This ignorance is why I urge people to resist advocating massive unilateral retaliation. If this was perpetrated by Islamic terrorists, they did it not out of anger against democracy but out of anger at the actions of the United States.

The US has pushed the world around for the last 50 years and today the world pushed back. I know that the act was not condoned or perpetrated by the world per se, but if the US had followed a different foreign policy in the past, these things wouldn't have happened.

If we over-retaliate, all it will do is give further strength to the opposition against the US while doing nothing to honor the unjustly murdered.

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<IMG SRC="http://gusalmighty.com/ugb/uploads/Nute/vgirl.gif" border=0> The Law of Fives (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/14-18.html#pg16) is never wrong. Hi-Yo!

[Mr. Snrub]

Not if we over-retaliate with sufficient brutality.

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[Denominator]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Snrub:
Not if we over-retaliate with sufficient brutality.

[/quote]


Yes, yes! A nuclear strike please. Make sure to hit Pakistan and India, just for the heck of it. When the missiles start flying, everyone will get their share of retaliation. We wouldn't want anyone left out. All this nuclear weapons research can't have been for nothing, can it now?

Now is the time to act. Concentration camps should be put up in which to incarcerate muslims living in the U.S. Don't give your semite neighbour a cup of sugar when he comes asking for it. Tell your children to make fun of their towelhead classmates. Throw stones at passing sandniggers.

YOU TOO CAN HAVE YOUR RETALIATION!


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[Mr. Snrub]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by Denominator:
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Snrub:
Not if we over-retaliate with sufficient brutality.

[/quote]


Yes, yes! A nuclear strike please. Make sure to hit Pakistan and India, just for the heck of it. When the missiles start flying, everyone will get their share of retaliation. We wouldn't want anyone left out. All this nuclear weapons research can't have been for nothing, can it now?

Now is the time to act. Concentration camps should be put up in which to incarcerate muslims living in the U.S. Don't give your semite neighbour a cup of sugar when he comes asking for it. Tell your children to make fun of their towelhead classmates. Throw stones at passing sandniggers.

YOU TOO CAN HAVE YOUR RETALIATION!


[/quote]


I said brutality, not mindless vengeance. Targeted vengeance is what we need. Find the people who did this and kill them like the animals they are. Kill everyone who has supported them and allowed them to flourish.

Simply put, tear out the heart of this beast without mercy.


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[Denominator]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Snrub:

I said brutality, not mindless vengeance. Targeted vengeance is what we need. Find the people who did this and kill them like the animals they are. Kill everyone who has supported them and allowed them to flourish.

Simply put, tear out the heart of this beast without mercy.
[/quote]

That is as utopian as unconditional world peace. Vengeance, whether it be targeted or not, is hate. Hate leads to more hate.

Supposing you find out everything about the terrorists (their names, where they live, etc.) - what will you do? Send a killer commando?
No, you won't. Because you can't. Assuming this was the act of Osama ibn Ladin, you would send a hit squad to Afghanistan? No. You'd bomb them with expensive cruise missiles. And you'd almost certainly kill innocent people (most likely people that are oppressed by the people you are trying to kill).


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[Mr. Snrub]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by Denominator:
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Snrub:

I said brutality, not mindless vengeance. Targeted vengeance is what we need. Find the people who did this and kill them like the animals they are. Kill everyone who has supported them and allowed them to flourish.

Simply put, tear out the heart of this beast without mercy.
[/quote]

That is as utopian as unconditional world peace. Vengeance, whether it be targeted or not, is hate. Hate leads to more hate.

Supposing you find out everything about the terrorists (their names, where they live, etc.) - what will you do? Send a killer commando?
No, you won't. Because you can't. Assuming this was the act of Osama ibn Ladin, you would send a hit squad to Afghanistan? No. You'd bomb them with expensive cruise missiles. And you'd almost certainly kill innocent people (most likely people that are oppressed by the people you are trying to kill).


[/quote]

Dead people can't hate.

And I would send in people to kill them.

Vladimir Putin said it best: "The series of barbaric acts directed against innocent people fills us with indignation and revolt. Such inhuman acts must not go unpunished."

There seems to be a perception going around that america brought this on itself. Hell, I agree. But some seem to think that this means this act can be written of as a consequence of earlier actions. I invite anyone who holds this view to tell someone who has lost their father, mother, husband, wife, or child to this attack that they were just collateral damage. Vengeance cannot bring them back, but to leave the people who perpetrated this unpunished is unthinkable.

What would YOU do?



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[Denominator]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Snrub:

Dead people can't hate.

And I would send in people to kill them.

Vladimir Putin said it best: "The series of barbaric acts directed against innocent people fills us with indignation and revolt. Such inhuman acts must not go unpunished."

There seems to be a perception going around that america brought this on itself. Hell, I agree. But some seem to think that this means this act can be written of as a consequence of earlier actions. I invite anyone who holds this view to tell someone who has lost their father, mother, husband, wife, or child to this attack that they were just collateral damage. Vengeance cannot bring them back, but to leave the people who perpetrated this unpunished is unthinkable.

What would YOU do?
[/quote]

While I think past actions of the U.S. are partly at fault, I do not think this should go unpunished. I just think killing MORE innocent people will not solve the problem, on the contrary, it will make it worse.
Since the U.S. has until now not taken any action, it would be inappropriate to condemn them in advance, but I still remember the images of the missile bombing in Sudan, where - quite clearly - civillians suffered from a U.S. "retaliation".


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[Mr. Snrub]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by Denominator:
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Snrub:

Dead people can't hate.

And I would send in people to kill them.

Vladimir Putin said it best: "The series of barbaric acts directed against innocent people fills us with indignation and revolt. Such inhuman acts must not go unpunished."

There seems to be a perception going around that america brought this on itself. Hell, I agree. But some seem to think that this means this act can be written of as a consequence of earlier actions. I invite anyone who holds this view to tell someone who has lost their father, mother, husband, wife, or child to this attack that they were just collateral damage. Vengeance cannot bring them back, but to leave the people who perpetrated this unpunished is unthinkable.

What would YOU do?
[/quote]

While I think past actions of the U.S. are partly at fault, I do not think this should go unpunished. I just think killing MORE innocent people will not solve the problem, on the contrary, it will make it worse.
Since the U.S. has until now not taken any action, it would be inappropriate to condemn them in advance, but I still remember the images of the missile bombing in Sudan, where - quite clearly - civillians suffered from a U.S. "retaliation".


[/quote]

Yes, the US has a tendency to use the broadsword of cruise missile to punish. Hopefully the severity of this event will cause they to grow the balls necessary to deploy the scalpel of special forces. Killing innocents in retaliation only sends the message that you want sufficient death, no matter whose, to make up for that which you have lost. Killing only those responsible shows you simply what to demonstrate what happens to those who voluntarily declare themselves to be beyond the pale of acceptable human conduct.



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[Denominator]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Snrub:
Yes, the US has a tendency to use the broadsword of cruise missile to punish. Hopefully the severity of this event will cause they to grow the balls necessary to deploy the scalpel of special forces. Killing innocents in retaliation only sends the message that you want sufficient death, no matter whose, to make up for that which you have lost. Killing only those responsible shows you simply what to demonstrate what happens to those who voluntarily declare themselves to be beyond the pale of acceptable human conduct.
[/quote]

The best way, I think, would be to ask or pressure the country that gives sanctuary to these terrorists to deal with them accordingly. That way, the sovereignity of the country in question would remain heeded.

These seek and destroy missions should be a last ditch effort.
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[This message has been edited by Denominator (edited 09-11-2001).]

[disturbed]

Well, the Prez said that he would "make no different betweent he people guilty of the crimes and the people that harbor them."

Not a direct quote.

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Victims.. Aren't we all?

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[DR]

Listen to squee and you will learn.

I just saw a former Israeli Prime Minister interviewed on BBC news claim that this is a perfect example of why we need a MDI. What a fucking arrogant bastard. How do you stop attacks of this kind? This has been in the making for some time. My condolences go out to all the innocents who have died... ever, but it is only when they are our own that we look up from our desks. What better way to dig yourself out of an economic crisis than to start a war. Push hard enough and someone will push back, then all you need to do is give the OK and financial liberation is yours.

Then more people die.

How many lives can $77 million dollars save? Many more than it can destroy methinks. 77 is the number of $1M cruise missiles launched into Middle Eastern camps by the US in an attempt to find one man. They failed.

...and the money keeps on printing.

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Diminished Responsibility

[TotalAnarchy]

America will have to deal with it. No other country wants to bring down the wrath of a similar Islamic Jihad down on their heads. Its common sense. And Bin Laden, well, you need to show his dead corpse to the world. Cruise missiles might miss. He might have moved. But a bullet to the back of the head never misses. Special forces are the best and possibly only way. Kill the fucker. If they dont, this will happen again. He's the deadliest terrorist in the world for a reason. He is fanatical, and is able to instill that in others. He has resources even the Columbians only dream about (and he's the worst dressed billionare of all time) and the protection of several nations, Afghanistan and Iran among them, as well as Lybia and others.

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"who are these? Why sit they in twilight?
Wherefore rock they, purgatorial shadows,
Drooping tongues from jaws that slob their relish,
Baring teeth that leer like skulls' teeth wicked?
Stroke on stroke of pain, -but what slow panic
Gouged these chasms round their fretted sockets?
Ever from their hair and through their hands' palms
Misery swelters. Surely we have perished
Sleeping, and walk in hell; but who these hellish?"

[Cruise Director]

I agree with you Squee. BUT, I refuse to sit around and sing kumbaya and talk about the injustices we, as Americans, have committed against the world and how we deserve this shit. I AM AN AMERICAN. Therefore I am self-centered in my wants of the 'American Way.' I live in the greatest country in the world. A country that instead of using endentured servatude (sp.) to fill the ranks of the military, offers an education to sign on the dotted line. And as a self-centered American, I want to be able to unleash that big bad motherfucker of a dog I call the American Military on anyone that thinks they are big enough to shit in my yard. ( Or my neighbor's yard, if I see fit.) I don't live in any of those countries that we have "wronged." I could care less about them. I live HERE. And when bad shit happens HERE I want answeres. I know it's ignorant to think that bad things will not happen here. I just want my dog to bite hard enough and fast enough to make some billionare terrorist think twice before he tries to blow shit up here.

Yes, I want to be able to watch the war on CNN. When Wolf Blitzer can't get a good shot of the action, I expect you to move some tanks and shit around so he gets a better shot. I want the Budweiser Corporation to deliver truckloads of beer to a country where drinking is illegal just to give our boys a taste of home. I want to take the war to THEM. I do not want to be inconvenienced by having stuff here ruined. I want heads to ROLL!!!! I want reservists to quit bitching when they get activated "because they have families now..." You signed, I didn't. Now get in there and bite some bastard where it hurts. I want the Government to police the entire fucking world and know when this shit is going to happen, but I don't ever want them peeking in my window. I want the first guy found illegal in the country SHOT unless he has a damned good reason to be here. I want Dubya to give Afghanistan exactly four days to produce some bodies or we turn their country into a parking lot. I want my skies safe but never want to hear jet engines unless it's at the local air show. I want my borders to be open to the theme parks we call adjacent countries, but I damn well better see that big dog on my way back in. I want the rose colored glasses.

I am Joe American
You fed me the Uncle Sam and Apple Pie.
Now entertain me.



<FONT size="1">some of this is satirical...but I'll bet some of it hits a little close to home, eh?</FONT s>

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Some of it's magic..
Some of it's tragic..
But I've had a good life all the way.

[squee]

Where to begin...?

There were two people I saw on TV last night who impressed me. One was some guy named...I forget...Brinks? And the other was--now, don't hang me--Newt Gingrich.

Brinks (or whoever he was) basically stated that what we NEED to do first is figure out what, in these people's minds, makes them want to target the US for terrorism. It is not, as some have said (and you know in my position I can't speak against anyone in my chain of command, so let's not name names)...it is NOT because these people "hate democracy" or because America is such a shining beacon of truth and light in the world. They are retaliating in kind for what they think are similar acts of terrorism enacted against their people by the American military.

Whether this is true or not is grounds for an entirely different discussion involving everything ranging from US support of Israel to alleged war crimes comitted by the Clinton administration during the Bosnia campaign all the way to our economic policy abroad. What matters is that these terrorists are not as stupid and unreasonable as you think they are. If they were gibbering idiots, could they have pulled off an attack of this magnitude? They have (in their minds, at least) justification, they have goals, and they have a plan for meeting those goals. We need to figure out all of this before we take another step.

The next step? Declare war! On whom, do you ask? Afghanistan? Pakistan? Those poor rock-throwing bastards in Palestine? Not without killing innocents. We don't need to wage war against a nation-state. One of our first military acts as a nation was to declare war on the Barbary Pirates in the Mediterranean Sea, a successful campaign against the terrorism of the times. What is most important about a declaration like this is that it will take the prosecution of our work against these terrorists out of the hands of the Justice Department and into the hands of Congress. In short, Generals, rather than Lawyers, will be directing this effort.

The last time we (meaning, the military) were able to prosecute our own war was World War II. And we won. Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Kosovo, were all campaigns in which the military was hamstrung by other interests. So I say, yes! Cry "HAVOC!" and let slip the dogs of war! We will go after who did this, with a minimum of what politicians call "collateral damage."

To the last adminstration this meant bombing foreign embassies, destroying churches full of people on a Sunday morning, bombing refugee trains of the people we were supposed to be defending. There are GREAT reasons why we need to let the military and intelligence/security services handle this, NOT a bunch of isolated, insulated, power-playing motherfuckers.

The defense rests.

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Non sibi sed patriae
Non nobis Domine, Domine! ...Sed nomine Tuo da gloriam!

[rage]

Hm...where to start..I'll try and keep it short.

those of you who say that "no" this isn't about the fact that we have democracy, this is just about what they think we have done to them.

I want to know guys (and yes, I am actually looking for responses) what have we done to these people? What? How have WE as a nation, oppressed these people? How have we been tyrannical towards them? We have helped countries that need it, I know that.

If you think the fact that we have freedom, that we have democracy, that our values are almost complete opposite of ours, if you think that plays no, you are sorely mistaken. While it may not be all of it, it is definitely some of it.

Why? because our ideals, cause us to help other countries that are trying to establish and maintain that same sort of freedom. Take Isreal for example. They are HATED by almost every nation that surrounds them. So we help them. Why? because we believe that ALL men are created equal, that tryannical leaders shouldn't be in power, because they take away freedom, and the oppress people. And if a country needs our help obtaining/retaining that, goddamnit, we are going to help them.

I dont think that all of you completely understand where they are coming from (And I dont claim that I do), but my parents, are missionaries to those area's, and have studied the people there, have gone to those countries, have ment the people there. They know those people, they know those type of people. My dad has been to sudan many times, always with a liberation army escort. What I'm trying to establish here is that they know these people.

The muslims/islamic people, HATE us. Not just because they think we bombed them once unwarrented. But they hate what we stand for, and hate what we do to support our freedom. They hate our beliefs. They hate our way of life. Some of that is related to their own beliefs, and their view of christianity/ and of us as a "christian nation."

Anyways...I want to make a disclaimer - Much of what I have said above may not be coherent. I am at work, and with my mind think about everything like it is, It is hard for me to bring words to what I am thinking. If any one who read this thinks I am getting angry at them or lashing out, or even arguing in anger about this, please dont...I am just trying to post what I know about the subject, and I apologize in advance. Also, I would like ot know instances where we 'oppressed' other countries, and any sort of bombing that we have done..but also the reasons for that..

Thx...

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We will remember you, and we will honor you.

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"Snoogy Boogies"

[This message has been edited by rage (edited 09-13-2001).]