The Black Death was NOT bubonic plague

[Spooky]

History textbooks have got it wrong about the Black Death, which they say was caused by bubonic plague spread by rats and their fleas. A new study suggests that it was in fact caused by an Ebola-like virus transmitted directly from person to person.

If the findings are confirmed it could mean that a modern form of the Black Death can emerge without requiring the insanitary conditions of the Middle Ages.

Generations of schoolchildren have been told that the plague bacteria transmitted by flea bites caused the great pestilences of medieval Europe which first appeared in the 14th century and killed at least 25 million people – more than a quarter of the entire population – over a 300-year period. But two infectious disease specialists who have analysed the Black Death have concluded that it bears a closer resemblance to modern outbreaks of haemorrhagic fever caused by the Ebola virus.

They also claim that a key mutation in a gene that protects people against infection by the Aids virus is estimated to have appeared at about the same time as the Black Death and served a similar function in that it gave carriers some protection against the virus.

Both observations point to an Ebola-like virus – rather than bubonic plague bacteria – being responsible, according to professors Christopher Duncan and Susan Scott, of the University of Liverpool.

"Intuitively, the Black Death has all the hallmarks of a viral disease rather than one caused by plague bacteria. The history books are wrong, there's little doubt about that," said Professor Duncan, who studies the way epidemics spread.

The first recorded outbreak of the Black Death occurred at the Sicilian port of Messina in 1347 and was brought in by Genoese galleys returning from the Crimea on the Black Sea.

A year later the disease arrived in the West Country of England and soon spread to towns and cities where it caused fear and panic among a superstitious population who thought the red blotches on the chest of affected individuals were "God's tokens".

Professor Duncan said people soon learnt that the only effective way of dealing with the Black Death was to put affected families and even entire villages into quarantine for 40 days. "A quarantine period was first instituted in the city states of northern Italy in the late 14th century and this was gradually adopted throughout Europe and maintained for the next 300 years until the plague disappeared," professors Duncan and Scott say in their book Biology of Plagues.

A quarantine would not have been effective if the disease was spread by rat fleas," said Professor Duncan. "Rats don't respect quarantines. This disease was transmitted directly from person to person which suggests an infectious virus."

Bubonic plagues spread in a complex fashion because they rely on the interaction of fleas, rats and people. Yet the pattern of spread of the Black Death was relatively simple and predictable, indicating person-to-person transmission.

"Endemic bubonic plague is essentially a rural disease because it is an infection of rodents," the book says. "The Black Death, in contrast, struck indiscriminately in the countryside and towns."

The symptoms of the Black Death point to a haemorrhagic fever caused by an Ebola-like virus. The fever struck suddenly, it caused aching and bleeding from internal organs, as well as red blotches caused by the effusion of blood under the skin – classic symptoms of Ebola-like illnesses.

Professor Duncan said there was further evidence to back his theory in the form of a mutation in a key gene – called CCR5 – involved in conferring some protection against HIV. Scientists have found that this mutation arose only in Europe at about the time of the Black Death and its high frequency suggests it probably offered resistance against the virus.

Professor Duncan said: "Historians jumped on the bubonic plague idea in the early 20th-century when the disease was first described in India but ... it was certainly not the causative agent in the Black Death or in any other of the outbreaks in England."



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sp00ky (http://www.roughjustice.co.uk)
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Disclaimer
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I am not expecting to change anything by this post other than awareness. Please do not take anything I say as fact, I am only relaying opinon of limited sources, who themselves know nothing and thus should also be ignored as heresay and could never be admissable in a court of law.

[The Ghost Who Walks]

well shit.......................... that changes everything *orders production change from rats to Ebola* http://www.thehypertribe.net/ubb/wink.gif

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"First they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew, so I didn't stand up. Then they came for the political dissidents, but I wasn't one of those, so I didn't stand up. Then they came for the Catholic ministers, but I was not one of those, so I didn't stand up. Then they came for the Protestants, and there was no-one left to stand up for me"
"Justice, not revenge"
"The final solution, you see, is really final, because people who are converted can yet be Jews in secret, people expelled can return. But people who are dead can not reappear........."

[Devils Own Advocate DOA]

It figures! What are they going to tell us next: There was no Boston Tea Party, It was a mistake the Earth is really elliptical. It makes you wonder how much of everything you learned in school was really a practical joke played on us to see how much we would actually believe. I am starting to feel really naive and Gullible.

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DOA

[MAC]

Um, again we must always keep in ind that science is the explination that wroks the best. Not necessarily the right answer.

As for black death....
I'm gonna hug a rat an apologize for all the terrible things I felt towrds it just because it was a rat.

This stigmata has cause too much predjudice against rodents.
I am ashamed for being so hateful and inconsiderate.

(And once they trust me it will be easier to shoot them with my pistol)

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Don't shake the devil's hand and say you're only kidding.

<IMG SRC="http://www.tyler.net/roguewarrior/images/macsnake.jpg" border=0>

[Spooky]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by theMAC:
I'm gonna hug a rat an apologize for all the terrible things I felt towrds it just because it was a rat.[/quote]

*snigger*

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sp00ky (http://www.roughjustice.co.uk)
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Disclaimer
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I am not expecting to change anything by this post other than awareness. Please do not take anything I say as fact, I am only relaying opinon of limited sources, who themselves know nothing and thus should also be ignored as heresay and could never be admissable in a court of law.

[Dog Breath]

Rats are great pets. They are affectionate and go well with pasta and merlot.

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If I had known I would be stuck with this name forever I would have thought of something clever.
<IMG SRC="http://www1.iwvisp.com/cas07/chinese.gif" border=0>

[squee]

Ok, time for some edumacation.

ANY researcher who publishes pop science has an agenda of some sort; so when you read this sort of thing, you have to ask yourself what they intend society to do as a reaction. As great as these books can be, you have to ask yourself--Is this person writing in the general interest of education, or are they being paid? How valid is their research? Who is backing them? What kind of reactions are they expecting, and what kind of interest would they have as a result?

Sometimes this kind of stuff is beneficial, and sometimes not. This guy is leaving out some critical information that dedicated epidemioligists would sneer at: number one, since when are there great concentrations of rats in rural areas than in cities? Number two, if the disease was spread directly from person to person, how did it break out on seagoing ships that avoided any contact with humans (but that had plenty of rats)?

What I'm saying is, while it is possible that the Black Death was not bubonic plague, there is some pretty shitty inference and logic at work here. It could all be a scheme to pump up firms that make antiviral drugs and whatnot. Take the most awful disease in human history, tell everyone that it could happen again at any time, and watch biotech firms' stocks skyrocket. It happened when "The Hot Zone" was published, it'll probably happen again.

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Non sibi sed patriae
Non nobis Domine, Domine! ...Sed nomine Tuo da gloriam!

[Spooky]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by squee:
number one, since when are there great concentrations of rats in rural areas than in cities?[/quote]

When the Black Death entered the UK it came across the sea. It came into the rural ports of Southampton, Portmouth, Plymouth etc.

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by squee:
Number two, if the disease was spread directly from person to person, how did it break out on seagoing ships that avoided any contact with humans (but that had plenty of rats)?[/quote]

Because. The Black Death historically spread through Europe into France then across the English Channel. The incubation period of said viral diseases is enough that a trip across the channel would not kill the carrier. The Channel can be crossed today in an hour. In the 15th Century it too, on average by wind power alone, about a day to cross.

With all due respect squee, your anlysis while honurable has one flaw. That of the speculatory 'conspiracy' nature of the pharmecutical companies.

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sp00ky (http://www.roughjustice.co.uk)
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Disclaimer
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I am not expecting to change anything by this post other than awareness. Please do not take anything I say as fact, I am only relaying opinon of limited sources, who themselves know nothing and thus should also be ignored as heresay and could never be admissable in a court of law.

[squee]

Ah, spooky, but I'm speaking not of transmission by ship, but rather the epidemiology of the ships themselves. Specifically, I've read about ships that avoided human contact specifically because of the threat of contagion--for instance, acquiring goods by boat with no contact with anyone onshore. They didn't get coughed on, but they DID get rats, and they DID turn into plagueships.

I'm not saying that it's impossible that a virus was the disease agent, but I do see a few things our researcher left out that strongly contradict his claims.

So, therefore, since I have a conspiratorial mind, I ask myself, why would he leave them out? The pharmaceuticals thing is just one idea. There are quite a few I could think of, but none that I could lend any creedence to without doing a background check on the researcher in question. Dig?

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Non sibi sed patriae
Non nobis Domine, Domine! ...Sed nomine Tuo da gloriam!

[Spooky]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by squee:
Ah, spooky, but I'm speaking not of transmission by ship, but rather the epidemiology of the ships themselves. Specifically, I've read about ships that avoided human contact specifically because of the threat of contagion--for instance, acquiring goods by boat with no contact with anyone onshore. They didn't get coughed on, but they DID get rats, and they DID turn into plagueships.[/quote]

The fact that some ships avoided contact does not imply that all did. Also have you ever tried loading a ship without having someone go from ship to shore?

The speed at which Black Death went through the South of England in the past implys there was alot more to it than rats. In addiiton the only records we have of the symptons of Black Death are what have been used in part of this study, and it is arguable that symptoons existed in most cases that were not in line with bacterial plague

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sp00ky (http://www.roughjustice.co.uk)
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Disclaimer
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I am not expecting to change anything by this post other than awareness. Please do not take anything I say as fact, I am only relaying opinon of limited sources, who themselves know nothing and thus should also be ignored as heresay and could never be admissable in a court of law.

[Mr. Snrub]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by Spooky:
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by squee:
[B]Also have you ever tried loading a ship without having someone go from ship to shore?
[/quote]

Yes. Quite frequently.



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[Spooky]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Snrub:
Yes. Quite frequently.[/quote]

NO try doing it it in the 15th Century

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sp00ky (http://www.roughjustice.co.uk)
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Disclaimer
------------------------------
I am not expecting to change anything by this post other than awareness. Please do not take anything I say as fact, I am only relaying opinon of limited sources, who themselves know nothing and thus should also be ignored as heresay and could never be admissable in a court of law.

[Mr. Snrub]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by Spooky:
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Snrub:
Yes. Quite frequently.[/quote]

NO try doing it it in the 15th Century

[/quote]

Even so - the ship could just arrange to have the goods left on the wharf and the crew could load the ship themselves. In fact, back in those days the crews usually were responsible for loading. Unless this virus has a range of 300m in the open air, the crew would not be exposed to it.



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[disturbed]

Who says it could not have been something as simple as milk? They did not have the technology back then to trace the roots of such a disease, most diseases mutate over time, it could have been 2 or 3 different strains all at the same time. There is ALWAYS two sides to every story, sometimes the other side just takes longer to get it's shit together so it had a "valid" argument.

I've read the book entitled <u>The Hot Zone</u> by Preston, whatever the hell it was back in the 15th century, I just pray that nothing like the Ebola virus ever does take off and cause a world wide epidemic.


Oh, and after just watching "The Blob" I would like to add that it was the government that started it, a wild experiment gone out of hand and blamed on a rat.

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Victims.. Aren't we all?

<IMG SRC="http://www.disturbedmonkey.net/sig.jpg" border=0>

[squee]

Yeah, Spooky, I'm afraid my Naval History muscles are going to out-flex you on this one...whenever there was a threat of contagion, they would communicate by shore with signal flags and pick up their shit on the pier. As I've said, it's pretty unlikely that a virus could be spread that way, unless someone sneezed in the drinking water. But then, it was cut with alcohol back then, which would probably have sterilized it, so that's probably out.

Here's the thing. If this researcher has dug up a whole bunch of new information, then hell yes, we should reexamine the issue. It's the whole "IT COULD HAPPEN AGAIN!" thing that I dislike most of all...I would advise slow, cautious study.

Spook, you seem to have the same penchant for historical revisionism that I do for conspracies http://www.thehypertribe.net/ubb/smile.gif I suggest you look for a book entitled 1492 And All That on Ignatius Press (I forget the author)...you'd have a good read http://www.thehypertribe.net/ubb/smile.gif

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Non sibi sed patriae
Non nobis Domine, Domine! ...Sed nomine Tuo da gloriam!

[Spooky]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by squee:
Spook, you seem to have the same penchant for historical revisionism that I do for conspracies http://www.thehypertribe.net/ubb/smile.gif[/quote]

Actually no I don't. But I do think that the knew intepretation of the Black Death, if it can be substantiated, at least anecdoatally, ought to require further investigation. I accept that it may be wrong, but the evidence as I see is just as speculatory as the evidence the theory that you have put forward.

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sp00ky (http://www.roughjustice.co.uk)
---------------------------
Disclaimer
------------------------------
I am not expecting to change anything by this post other than awareness. Please do not take anything I say as fact, I am only relaying opinon of limited sources, who themselves know nothing and thus should also be ignored as heresay and could never be admissable in a court of law.

[MAC]

1) carriers: get a disease but don't show symptoms (see typhoid mary)

2) the pious: God will protect me so I'll go where I like and load what I like when I like

3) prostitues: sailor @ sea + many months + pay = horny (see: squee)

so I don't see how argueing about the aseptic handling of cargo could possible narrow down the ways they picked up a communicable disease be it virus or bacteriological infection.

Human to human contact was inevitable.


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Don't shake the devil's hand and say you're only kidding.

<IMG SRC="http://www.tyler.net/roguewarrior/images/macsnake.jpg" border=0>

[Dragon Lady]

just remember spooky...that if the powers that be want the virus to start taking us out...it will be done...just look what happened when they were exterminating in the 40's on us...leigonairs diease was a government experiment...was it not..??? and the experiments on the mentally challenged in the 40's...what next do you think...???
we just don't know do we...think about it...!!!!

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deal with it

[Spooky]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by Dragon Lady:
leigonairs diease was a government experiment...was it not..???[/quote]

Evidence? And I donlt mean some paranoid freaks Geocities site. Government documents froma reliable source is what I want to see. If you can't find them then I will consign the cliam to the realm of fantasy.

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>and the experiments on the mentally challenged in the 40's...what next do you think...???[/quote]

what expereiments. You know it is traditional in academic circles to provide reliable sources to assertions.

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sp00ky (http://www.roughjustice.co.uk)
---------------------------
Disclaimer
------------------------------
I am not expecting to change anything by this post other than awareness. Please do not take anything I say as fact, I am only relaying opinon of limited sources, who themselves know nothing and thus should also be ignored as heresay and could never be admissable in a court of law.