Suppression of Information is Wrong.

[Spooky]

From the <a href="http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB52/" target="_blank">National Security Archive</a>

********************************************
WASHINGTON, D.C., 27 July – George Washington University’s National Security Archive today posted on the Web (www.nsarchive.org) one of two State Department documentary histories whose release the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency is stalling, even though the documents included in the volumes were officially declassified in 1998 and 1999, according to public State Department records. The two disputed State Department volumes cover Indonesia-Malaysia-Philippines in the years 1964-68 and Greece-Turkey-Cyprus in the same period.

The CIA, as well as action officers at the State Department, have prevented the official release of either volume, already printed and bound by the Government Printing Office. The National Security Archive obtained the Indonesia volume posted today when the GPO, apparently by mistake, shipped copies to various GPO bookstores; but the Greece volume is still locked up in GPO warehouses.

********************************************

Yes that right. Su[pression of information by the CIA and the State Department. Why I wonder? Could it be they are scared of the truth coming out?

That truth being that in Indonesia the CIA helped to oppress the opposition communist party and also provided details of the leadership structures of that party. Strangely many of those people, disappeared.

The book states that: "We frankly do not know whether the real figure [of communists who have been killed] is closer to 100,000 or 1,000,000 but believe it wiser to err on the side of the lower estimates, especially when questioned by the press,"

ahhh political oppression abroad is such a wonderful thing.


------------------
------------------
sp00ky (http://www.roughjustice.co.uk)
---------------------------
Disclaimer
------------------------------
I am not expecting to change anything by this post other than awareness. Please do not take anything I say as fact, I am only relaying opinon of limited sources, who themselves know nothing and thus should also be ignored as heresay and could never be admissable in a court of law.

[Escape Artist]

Pretty hard to suppress...

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meaning comes from within...

[MAC]

Yup.

But our gov't only acts in our best interest.
It does what it must to protect us and our way of life.
It is aiding in the spread of capitolism.
Helping the down fall of communism.

And should we say "No, I don't want to do that" well we're wrong.
In fact we're a part of the problem and we're ruining it for everyone else.
And we stand to be suppressed.

Majority rules when you're talking about things like school bus's stopping at RR crossings.
Innocent until proven guilty is for stuff like embezzlement.
Your freedom of speech is done for you in the editorial column of the newspaper and proofread by the gov't school that instituionalised your education and told you where to go for the truth.

Thank god chaos still works in our favor.
http://www.thehypertribe.net/ubb/frown.gif


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Don't shake the devil's hand and say you're only kidding.

<IMG SRC="http://www.tyler.net/roguewarrior/images/macsnake.jpg" border=0>

[caustic_milk]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by Spooky:
Yes that right. Su[pression of information by the CIA and the State Department. Why I wonder? Could it be they are scared of the truth coming out?


ahhh political oppression abroad is such a wonderful thing.


[/quote]


You are a moron if you think our government is the only one who has ever engaged in this type of thing. History gets a bit skewed when only one country shares classified information like this. While our shit is all out in the open, all the other countries can squawk about it while still able to cover up their own bullshit. Lets at least be realists when considering history.



[This message has been edited by caustic_milk (edited 07-30-2001).]

[Spooky]

ahhhh intellectually weak inferences again. That old chestnut. I never said that the US government was the only one to engage in these kind of act of war abroad illegally. On the contrary many do. However, the attempt to supress the release of the documents by the CIA and the State Department ought to be a concern. No wait, you are a party line drone, I forgot.

Have you actually gone through the National Security Archive and read any of the documents? I doubt it somehow.

I read them earlier whilst at work. Some very interesting conversations between LBJ and McNamara. With such juicy lines to the akin 'we must direct Indonesia's domestic policy'.

History is a wodnerful thing its true. Unfoirtunately Ms Milk you do not have a passion for history. You have a passion for positive revisionism.

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sp00ky (http://www.roughjustice.co.uk)
---------------------------
Disclaimer
------------------------------
I am not expecting to change anything by this post other than awareness. Please do not take anything I say as fact, I am only relaying opinon of limited sources, who themselves know nothing and thus should also be ignored as heresay and could never be admissable in a court of law.

[caustic_milk]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by Spooky:

History is a wodnerful thing its true. Unfoirtunately Ms Milk you do not have a passion for history. You have a passion for positive revisionism.

[/quote]

A passion for history?
Is that what you call your obsession with playing in our garbage?
And I am a realist spooky, nothing more sometimes I dream but reality jolts me back to common sense...you should try it sometimes. I hear you are going back to school, I think professional student would be a good thing for you to be since you cant seem to figure anything out for your self and would rather sit in a chair and pay someone to fill your head with regulated and approved information. I don’t knock education though, as a matter of fact I admire and respect some educated people, I just knock people who have to be told everything and cant seem to think outside the lines of the lessons someone was paid to give them. You are a cardboard cut out spooky, and certainly in sync with the mass liberal bullshit shoved in my face every day. You said I’m a party drone? Well your ignorance shows again, I do post on a conservative forum and piss a lot of those people almost as much as I piss you off…I cant say I dislike them as much though. http://www.thehypertribe.net/ubb/smile.gif
Hey, go tell a pedophile joke or make a page long post about coddling criminals eh; cause after all there is no such thing as right and wrong...right? You’re good at that; almost as good as showing your nationalistic penis envy.



[This message has been edited by caustic_milk (edited 07-30-2001).]

[caustic_milk]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by RogueWarrior:

snip
[/quote]

Sorry for hauling our garbage over here, we have chemistry spooky and I, and a bit of history. I’ll keep it at a minimum.
Forum looks great RW.

[Deadpool]

/me flails his arms wildly into the air. http://www.thehypertribe.net/ubb/mad.gif

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<IMG SRC="http://unix-shells.com/~robert26/Deadpool1.jpg" border=0>

Fuck you I wont do what you tell me. -RATM

[CAL]

Ah Caustic, my love. Good to see you! http://www.thehypertribe.net/ubb/smile.gif

CAL http://www.thehypertribe.net/ubb/cool.gif

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<IMG SRC="http://forums.waterfowlcentral.com/pics/ACF228.jpg" border=0>

"The desert is my church and hunting is my god..."

"I have sworn upon the altar of GOD, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." - Thomas Jefferson

[caustic_milk]

Missed you CAL, good to see you again. Hope all is well with you (even though youre a dirty hippie http://www.thehypertribe.net/ubb/biggrin.gif).

[Spooky]

Is that what you call your obsession with playing in our garbage?

No I call it history. Its the academic study os things past. Its how people learn for the future by looking at the past. Its about analysing the actions of the past and make sense of them in hindsight. Of course in all honesty I don't expect you too understand that simple concept. Mainly because you have the weakest anyalytical mind this side of the primordial pond.

And I am a realist spooky, nothing more sometimes I dream but reality jolts me back to common sense...you should try it sometimes.

hahahha. And studying the actions of nations in the past is not real?

I hear you are going back to school, I think professional student would be a good thing for you to be since you cant seem to figure anything out for your self and would rather sit in a chair and pay someone to fill your head with regulated and approved information.

Education is what separates I from you. Its what defines us differently. Because I have knowledge, and you have, well shall we say, little knowledge. You know not of what I am actually going to study. But of course, your weak failed attempts at logical deduction (which fall just short of those of chimpanzee might I add, have shone through again). One of my key areas of study will be European Social Policy. A very real thing. A thing that is happening while we speak. So to suggest I don;t deal with reality is not ownly foolish, but it is entirely wrong.

I just knock people who have to be told everything and cant seem to think outside the lines of the lessons someone was paid to give them.

Please define how I have told you anything I have been taught. I disagree with all my lecturers. They are all socialist card holders, my one professor friend is an american and a marxist and I disagree with her too. You know nothing of me in fact except the words you see here. Your problem my dear, is that you see any comment by an outsider on your glorious nation as a direct insult if it is critical. A rational person would look at the statement and take it on board. You are of the veiled belief that you live in a nation that is always on the side of right, and when someone points out a wrong, you pass it off as if it some lie. You bury your head in the sand. Well my dear, maybe you really should go and read the declassified documents of your own government and make your own decisions. No wait, that would too hard, better to dismiss them as rubbish even when the paper have official authenticity.

almost as good as showing your nationalistic penis envy.

oh the irony. Just a moment ago you were telling me how I could not think for myself. Then you throw in as an insult a concept by Freud. More ironic still that he was, horror of horrors! a European. Can your insular mind cope with the tragedy? Seems like the pot is calling the kettle black me thinks. Or am I too presume that the Caustic one defined the phrase 'penis envy', along with all the other ideas appropriated as your own and not accredited to their original thinkers.

On top of this, I gather from this lamentable insult that you are referring to me somehow being jealous of the US, because your nation has a bigger penis than mine. A metaphor no doubt to the relative international power and influence each nation plays in the world. Might I suggest, and I know you like education, that you actually go and read Freud and find out what 'penis envy' actually is. It often helps to understand a concept and idea fully before you begin to bastardise others work into poorly judged and intellectually tepid metaphorically statements. An insult might I add that is about as much use to understanding the original concept as a barbers shop at the steps of the guillotine.

MIght I also suggest reading about the 'id'. For some reason I cannot but think of you when the mention of Freudian thought comes into play.


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sp00ky (http://www.roughjustice.co.uk)
---------------------------
Disclaimer
------------------------------
I am not expecting to change anything by this post other than awareness. Please do not take anything I say as fact, I am only relaying opinon of limited sources, who themselves know nothing and thus should also be ignored as heresay and could never be admissable in a court of law.

[Mudflap]

<FONT COLOR="Orange">Kind of off topic, but I just wanted to ask if any other nation or government has earned Spooky's spite? Besides the USA?

Hey Spooky, do you have an agenda? Would you admit it if you did?</FONT c>

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<FONT COLOR="red">It has to start somewhere.
It has to start some time.
What better place than here?
What better time than now?
All hell can't stop us now.</FONT c>

[squee]

Um, getting back to the issue...

Of course they are going to restrict things, Spooky. Is it a secret that the US manipulates other countries militarily, economically, and socially? I hope you're not just now finding this out http://www.thehypertribe.net/ubb/smile.gif

I don't know exactly what you're blowing the whistle on, here, my Minister of Spookistry.

My other question is, does this Indonesia document have anything to do with East Timor? That's the same island, right (my geography is lacking)?

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Non sibi sed patriae
Non nobis Domine, Domine! ...Sed nomine Tuo da gloriam!

[Spooky]

Kind of off topic, but I just wanted to ask if any other nation or government has earned Spooky's spite? Besides the USA?

YEs it has. The UK as it happens. But whenever I post about my country it tends to get ignored by all the americans. It just kind of helps reinforce my view that americans tend to be very insular looking.

Would you admit it if you did?

oooo loaded question. Can't win either way there really. But no I do not have an agenda other than knowledge.

Just to say though, that I have been on the National Security Archive mailing list for about five years now. I joined whilst studying the Cold War at Uni. I am also on the Kremlin Archives mailing list too, but I am guessing if I post about that people will ignore it too.



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sp00ky (http://www.roughjustice.co.uk)
---------------------------
Disclaimer
------------------------------
I am not expecting to change anything by this post other than awareness. Please do not take anything I say as fact, I am only relaying opinon of limited sources, who themselves know nothing and thus should also be ignored as heresay and could never be admissable in a court of law.

[Spooky]

Of course they are going to restrict things, Spooky. Is it a secret that the US manipulates other countries militarily, economically, and socially? I hope you're not just now finding this out.

Of course not. But these documents were declassified months ago. The reaosn they are being supressed now is because Bush does'nt want to upset Indonesia and alienate a key part of the pacific rim.

I don't know exactly what you're blowing the whistle on

See above post about previous studies etc.

My other question is, does this Indonesia document have anything to do with East Timor? That's the same island, right?

No and Yes. No it has nothing to do with the East Timor incidnet. Yes it is in Indonesia. These documents are too do with the LBJ administration and its relations with Indonesia in its illegal funding of black ops to kill members of the communist opposition party. NOTE: The opposition party were communists. Essentially it is is about the opprression of self determination.

My country are also named in the papers as well. They were just as bad during this time, and a book is being realesed here on the actions of the Wilson government during this time also.



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sp00ky (http://www.roughjustice.co.uk)
---------------------------
Disclaimer
------------------------------
I am not expecting to change anything by this post other than awareness. Please do not take anything I say as fact, I am only relaying opinon of limited sources, who themselves know nothing and thus should also be ignored as heresay and could never be admissable in a court of law.

[Mudflap]

<FONT COLOR="Orange">Ah...so you post for the attention. </FONT c>

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<FONT COLOR="red">It has to start somewhere.
It has to start some time.
What better place than here?
What better time than now?
All hell can't stop us now.</FONT c>

[Spooky]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mudflap:
Ah...so you post for the attention.

No, I post because the subject matters are wotrthy to be discussed. Just because they gain attention (usually unfair attention) does not mean that that is their inherent purpose. Read my disclaimer.



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sp00ky (http://www.roughjustice.co.uk)
---------------------------
Disclaimer
------------------------------
I am not expecting to change anything by this post other than awareness. Please do not take anything I say as fact, I am only relaying opinon of limited sources, who themselves know nothing and thus should also be ignored as heresay and could never be admissable in a court of law.

[Mudflap]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by Mudflap:
Ah...so you post for the attention.
[/quote]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by Spooky:

No, I post because the subject matters are wotrthy to be discussed. Just because they gain attention (usually unfair attention) does not mean that that is their inherent purpose. Read my disclaimer.[/quote]


<FONT COLOR="Orange">Are the UK and Kremlin topics less worthy of discussion even though you assume they will be ignored? </FONT c>

------------------
<FONT COLOR="red">It has to start somewhere.
It has to start some time.
What better place than here?
What better time than now?
All hell can't stop us now.</FONT c>

[This message has been edited by Mudflap (edited 07-30-2001).]

[Buddha's Penis!]

an off-topic observation: everybody claims to be a realist. it's kind of hard to be concerned with the "real" when you're locked in subjective thought. seems like there's no such thing as "realism" in the common context.

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you don't know anything until you know everything.

[caustic_milk]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Spooky:
[B]Is that what you call your obsession with playing in our garbage?

No I call it history. Its the academic study os things past. Its how people learn for the future by looking at the past. Its about analysing the actions of the past and make sense of them in hindsight. Of course in all honesty I don't expect you too understand that simple concept. Mainly because you have the weakest anyalytical mind this side of the primordial pond.

<font color=brown>first of all you missspelled of, analyzing, and analytical. Before you start to insult my intelligence you better make sure your high horse isn’t really a chicken. </font>

And I am a realist spooky, nothing more sometimes I dream but reality jolts me back to common sense...you should try it sometimes.

hahahha. And studying the actions of nations in the past is not real?

<font color=brown>Oh, don’t think I am making that judgment on this thread alone, your verbiage as a whole is what that was in reference to. </font>

I hear you are going back to school, I think professional student would be a good thing for you to be since you cant seem to figure anything out for your self and would rather sit in a chair and pay someone to fill your head with regulated and approved information.

Education is what separates I from you. Its what defines us differently. Because I have knowledge, and you have, well shall we say, little knowledge. You know not of what I am actually going to study. But of course, your weak failed attempts at logical deduction (which fall just short of those of chimpanzee might I add, have shone through again). One of my key areas of study will be European Social Policy. A very real thing. A thing that is happening while we speak. So to suggest I don;t deal with reality is not ownly foolish, but it is entirely wrong.

<font color=brown>Wow, pretty creative spelling of the word “only” there guy. I am also self educated, I took it upon my self to study up on things I was interested in, things I wanted to know…and it seems I can at least keep up with the “academically elite” such as yourself.</font>

. Your problem my dear, is that you see any comment by an outsider on your glorious nation as a direct insult if it is critical.

<font color=brown>Um, it is almost all you ever fucking talk about, seems when you say you are interested in history, you mean American history; how about some of your own history? I mean your country has been raping and pillaging much longer than our approximate 225 years. Sure my country has problems, you act like we are the only ones; eager to spout your self perceived moral and academic superiority…sorry if I’m a bit sick of it.</font>

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<IMG SRC="http://wsphotofews.excite.com/023/X6/Na/PJ/Eq13043.jpg" border=0>
Walk with out rhythm so you don’t attract the worm.



[This message has been edited by caustic_milk (edited 07-30-2001).]

[Spooky]

the selective choosing of reply is such a wonderful thing. I thought you would of at least told me how I was wrong on each part, instead you chose to to pick out my typos and attempt to formulate an argument around them. Interesting angle to take Caustic. I'm impressed at your resourcefulness in the face of adversity.

You're right about my country raping and pillaging longer than yours. But history today tends to be about the modern world, all of our raping and pillaging is out in the open. I am not proud of it in anyway, in fact I am not proud of the nation state as a whole.

You dissappoint me though. I expected to wake up and see a point by point crappy analysis of my post and all I got was a grammar nazi. Oh well, I guess you can't expect the world from those that don't have it.

Mudflap: Are the UK and Kremlin topics less worthy of discussion even though you assume they will be ignored?

Not at all. But I can guarantee you that if I post about something in the UK it will likely be ignored. Why should I waste the time typing it if that is the case. If I post about Europe in any way shape or form it usually transceneds away from its reality into ideological divisiveness.


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sp00ky (http://www.roughjustice.co.uk)
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Disclaimer
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I am not expecting to change anything by this post other than awareness. Please do not take anything I say as fact, I am only relaying opinon of limited sources, who themselves know nothing and thus should also be ignored as heresay and could never be admissable in a court of law.

[strangerthanfiction]

I would like to add a bit to this, in our local paper recently there was an article about New jersey haveing an interesting time of prosecuting the son of a local mafia figure. the particulars of interest are that the FBI broke into and stole several files off the suspects computer only to find that they were encrypted with PGP. The FBI finding that they were unable to break the encryption resorted to either Bugging the suspects computer or introduceing a program that captured keystrokes in order to obtain the password to decrypt the files. The FBI will not say which method was used and the defense is sueing for this information as there are questions of Fourth Amendment right violations in regards to the FBI's seizure of the files. The FBI did all of this without a wiretap warrent but with only a warrent to search for evidence.

the case is most likely going to the supreme court and will be a benchmark case for future investigations. such as the case recently regarding the use of thermographic imaging without a warrant for its specific use.

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I am one of the gods own experiments, a high powered mutant too weird to live too rare to die.

[Buddha's Penis!]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by Spooky:

Not at all. But I can guarantee you that if I post about something in the UK it will likely be ignored. Why should I waste the time typing it if that is the case. If I post about Europe in any way shape or form it usually transceneds away from its reality into ideological divisiveness.


[/quote]

that is true. if you want political debate, you usually have to talk about the US. people don't have much to say about the power of the euro or the bc provincial elections.

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you don't know anything until you know everything.

[MuffyTheVampyreLayer]

OH MY GOD!!!! The government suppressing information!!!! Surely this can't be true!!!???? http://www.thehypertribe.net/ubb/rolleyes.gif

Ahem... sorry.... sarcastic moment over... Whats the deal with that 75(?..you know, the one where information becomes public after x amount of time) year rule you have in the states? Does it actually ever get used?

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"Do not open your mouth to tell me that your mind has convinced you of your right to force my mind. Force and mind are opposites. Morality ends where a gun begins."