View Full Version : Look at it from their point of view
I notice that the PETA thread has turned into a debate on self awareness.
People trying to logically nail down why WE(humans) are self aware and THEY (animals) are not.....
HHHhhhhhmmmmmm....
The sun shines, the rain falls, the grass grows.
Out come the antelope to eat the grass.
Do they understand the rich diverse life forms working beneath the soil to provide the substance of their meal?
Do they bother to ask why the grass is green or brown ? Do they study the types of seeds?
No.
They eat the grass.
They are antelope, it is grass.
The lion hides in the grass.
He waits for the antelope to come near. Then he does what ever he can to kill and eat the antelope.
Does he ask, why the antelope eats grass?
Why the grass grows tall enough to hide him?
Does he consider the vectors of the chase?
Is he concerned with the antelopes friends and family?
Does he wonder how it survived the droughts?
No.
He eats the antelope.
He is the lion it is the antelope.
That's how I sum it up.
Expect nothing different from animals.
You can count on them.
People?
We're animals in body only.
If its chemically driven or physically based, it animal.
The human part, in my experience, is fluid.
It requires a soul to channel it.
To bind it to the animal.
The human part belongs someplace else.
It is from someplace else.
Cause it damn sure doesn't come from here.
And its too difficult to handle by yourself.
Its beyond our bodies and above our minds.
Trying to hold on to it...
that's "self aware".
------------------
Don't shake the devil's hand and say you're only kidding.
<IMG SRC="http://www.tyler.net/roguewarrior/images/macsnake.jpg" border=0>
Koliedrus
06-25-2001, 06:59 PM
Poet.
<FONT size="-2">Almost sounds like a curse when taken out of context, doesn't it?</FONT s>
To be honest, I've been avoiding the thread. Something tells me my bacon sammiches won't taste quite the same once I go there.
------------------
Oyster-brain in a cookie jar.
Dog Breath
06-25-2001, 07:29 PM
A teenager:
Eats the food in the fridge boroughs the car and chases girls.
Does he contemplate the hard work that put that carton of milk in the refrigerator or does he just drink straight from the carton?
Does he ask how much the car payments are or insurance? Does he understand the chemical reaction that propels the car forward or does he just drive?
Does he think about the girls feelings as he pressures her into sex or does he simply bone her. Does he stop to consider her feelings and give her pleasure taking into account the vectors and gyrations that stimulate her or does he just blow his wad and roll off to sleep?
The answer is no. Because they are what they are and he is a teenager.
Proof that a teenager has no soul. http://www.thehypertribe.net/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.thehypertribe.net/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.thehypertribe.net/ubb/biggrin.gif
------------------
Woof.
If it's so sick, why are you laughing?
<IMG SRC="http://sites.netscape.net/mydogbreath/dogbre2.gif" border=0>
Deadpool
06-25-2001, 08:23 PM
Teenager, the other white meat.
------------------
<IMG SRC="http://unix-shells.com/~robert26/Deadpool1.jpg" border=0>
Fuck you I wont do what you tell me. -RATM
MuffyTheVampyreLayer
06-25-2001, 08:55 PM
Mmmm, humans are tasty.
------------------
"Do not open your mouth to tell me that your mind has convinced you of your right to force my mind. Force and mind are opposites. Morality ends where a gun begins."
Dog Breath
06-25-2001, 09:05 PM
At least on the outside. http://www.thehypertribe.net/ubb/biggrin.gif
------------------
Woof.
If it's so sick, why are you laughing?
<IMG SRC="http://sites.netscape.net/mydogbreath/dogbre2.gif" border=0>
Mr. Snrub
06-26-2001, 01:17 AM
I quote that great intellectual and My Goddamn Hero (tm), Dennis Leary:
"What gives mankind the right to kill at will?
Guns. That's what. Big fucking guns with enormous fucking bullets."
------------------
East bound and down.
Uberwonder
06-26-2001, 01:50 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by theMAC:
[B]I notice that the PETA thread has turned into a debate on self awareness.
People trying to logically nail down why WE(humans) are self aware and THEY (animals) are not.....
HHHhhhhhmmmmmm....
The sun shines, the rain falls, the grass grows.
Out come the antelope to eat the grass.
Do they understand the rich diverse life forms working beneath the soil to provide the substance of their meal?
<font color = yellow>How many humans understand it? How many humans are even one tenth as aware of these lifeforms as is that antelope? He knows they are there at least, he hears and smells them. Most humans have an equal amount of curiousity as the antelope.</font>
Do they bother to ask why the grass is green or brown ? Do they study the types of seeds?
No.
<font color = yellow>How do you know they don't "study" the seeds? How do you know that when they sniff the grass they are not reading it like a book?
How many humans ask those questions? What infintesimal percentage could comprehend the complexity of it all and care enough to truly understand it? How many believe that it was a god or a bad omen or any number of bs reasons for the grass to turn instead of the scientific reasons?</font>
They eat the grass.
They are antelope, it is grass.
The lion hides in the grass.
He waits for the antelope to come near. Then he does what ever he can to kill and eat the antelope.
Does he ask, why the antelope eats grass?
<font color = yellow>How do you know whether he ponders that in his limited way or not?</font>
Why the grass grows tall enough to hide him?
Does he consider the vectors of the chase?
<font color = yellow>I would imagine he does.</font>
Is he concerned with the antelopes friends and family?
<font color = yellow>As much as any predator does. Like humans are concerned about the friends and families of the animals they eat, the animals they displace or destroy in the name of progress, the animals that die by the millions from the poisons we spread around the planet.</font>
Does he wonder how it survived the droughts?
No.
He eats the antelope.
He is the lion it is the antelope.
That's how I sum it up.
Expect nothing different from animals.
You can count on them.
People?
We're animals in body only.
If its chemically driven or physically based, it animal.
<font color = yellow>(plants are chemically driven and physically based too)</font>
The human part, in my experience, is fluid.
It requires a soul to channel it.
To bind it to the animal.
The human part belongs someplace else.
It is from someplace else.
Cause it damn sure doesn't come from here.
And its too difficult to handle by yourself.
Its beyond our bodies and above our minds.
Trying to hold on to it...
that's "self aware".
<font color = yellow>In as much as no one has ever truly documented the "soul", then how can you asume that an animal does not have it's own variation of a soul? Does a dolphin, which shows many of the admirable atributes of man have one? Why wouldn't they? They love, they communicate, they have a society, they mourn the loss of a mate or even a fellow dolphin... There are many creatures that share the lofty traits of man yet we arrogantly snub them as being soulless. Why?</font>
[This message has been edited by Uberwonder (edited 06-25-2001).]
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Uberwonder:
<font color = yellow>How many humans understand it? How many humans are even one tenth as aware of these lifeforms as is that antelope? He knows they are there at least, he hears and smells them. Most humans have an equal amount of curiousity as the antelope.
How do you know they don't "study" the seeds? How do you know that when they sniff the grass they are not reading it like a book?
How many humans ask those questions? What infintesimal percentage could comprehend the complexity of it all and care enough to truly understand it? How many believe that it was a god or a bad omen or any number of bs reasons for the grass to turn instead of the scientific reasons?
How do you know whether he ponders that in his limited way or not?
I would imagine he does.
As much as any predator does. Like humans are concerned about the friends and families of the animals they eat, the animals they displace or destroy in the name of progress, the animals that die by the millions from the poisons we spread around the planet.
(plants are chemically driven and physically based too)
In as much as no one has ever truly documented the "soul", then how can you asume that an animal does not have it's own variation of a soul? Does a dolphin, which shows many of the admirable atributes of man have one? Why wouldn't they? They love, they communicate, they have a society, they mourn the loss of a mate or even a fellow dolphin... There are many creatures that share the lofty traits of man yet we arrogantly snub them as being soulless. Why?</font>
ummm, i think i love you.
------------------
<IMG SRC="http://www.photoloft.com/view/exportImage.asp?s=jasc&i=7060670&w=375&h=146>" border=0>
If you are dedicated to truth and you live your life without shame, then you don't really have to care whether your neighbors can see what you're doing.
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by Inky:
ummm, i think i love you.[/quote]
okay, on second thought, I just love what you wrote. Responses like that are why I bother coming here. And the same goes to theMac for his always thoughtful posts. Kudos to you both.
------------------
<IMG SRC="http://www.photoloft.com/view/exportImage.asp?s=jasc&i=7060670&w=375&h=146>" border=0>
If you are dedicated to truth and you live your life without shame, then you don't really have to care whether your neighbors can see what you're doing.
Uber,
If they did, why do they continue unchanged?
I look forward to your reply.
------------------
Don't shake the devil's hand and say you're only kidding.
<IMG SRC="http://www.tyler.net/roguewarrior/images/macsnake.jpg" border=0>
King Bastard
06-26-2001, 03:42 AM
<FONT COLOR="Red">i wont speak for Uber, but as far as I see it.....
animals HAVE to get a bit curious about what it is that keeps them alive. if a Lioness didnt stop to think about the vector of a chase, in a lioness's version of reckoning, then that lioness would not kill her quarry with any kind of needed success rate. Yes, luck will factor into it for her as much for the guy with a lotto ticket, but like palying card games, there is a certain matter of skill to be had, a profeciency if you will, about doing the things you need to do to survive.
Here coems a potentially shitty example. did Matt Damons Character in Rounders NEED to play the games in order to survive? Yes and no. He could have stuck to the straight and narrow, worked a steady job, made a steady amount of pay, finished law school... but would he have been living? No. His SOUL was driven to succeed at that game of skill, as he put it. He couldnt LIVE by grinding out what to him was a meager existance with no thrill, no passion, no playing cards.
Is the dolphin a noble creature with a soul? Maybe. Is it a tasty addition to my omnivourous collection of edibles? Maybe, I dont bother to by dolphin free tuna when I elect to buy tuna at all. Was said dolphin dumb enough to get caught in a tuna net, allowing me the chance to eat it? yes. Should I feel badly that the oh so elegant dolphin has perished for my culinary needs? No. I am electing to enforce selective breeding. now, if we are going to end up putting them on the endangered list so I can have a low fat, high protein meal, I'll stop eating tuna and encourage others willing to see my side of the arguemnet to do the same. Till then, light on the mayo, put some fucking celery in there and bomb the hell out of my tuna/dolphin mix with lots and lots of black pepper.
Yeah, Dennis Leary had it right. "We kill the cows for the leather for our jackets, and then we kill each other for the leather jackets we made from the cow" So... why not have something like Soylent Green to feed the starving masses of the world? Free protein to be had that is just rotting away or being burnt as offerings to the Gods and Goddess's of Air and Fire (as cool as that is, they'll be just as pleased to have the smells of the cooking meat offered, as long as they ones living from the meals continue to live and hold them in their living hearts). DAmn man, I need to get really fucking tired and read this palce more often, that was a good rant.</FONT c>
------------------
Borne of sin, C',mon in... Andre Linoge; Storm of the Century
Uberwonder
06-26-2001, 03:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by theMAC:
Uber,
If they did, why do they continue unchanged?
I look forward to your reply.
[/quote]
What makes you think that they are not changing? Do you believe in evolution? There is your change, it's just to vast a process to be observed from one lifetime in most cases.
To compare to humans, you must remember that we aren't all changing. There is a large percentage of the human population on this planet that really have not changed hardly at all for centuries.
I think the fact that we sit here at the marvelous machines makes us sometimes feel that we (humans, et al) are evolving at breakneck speed when in reality, we are not. Just the toys of a relatively small percentage of the population.
There are signs of animals changing, the chimpanzee can now communicate with humans through sign language and are capable of teaching each other to sign and to expand their vocabulary on their own.
Is that not "changing"?
The fact that we are "changing" is not the same.
Pianomahnn
06-26-2001, 03:55 AM
A year ago I took a Philosophy class, and one day we were debating on wether or not animals knew right from wrong. My philosophy wouldn't say they did if his life depended upon it. It has been my experience through many documentaries that animals do in fact know right from wrong. It's the same thing we humans do. Our mommies tell us something is bad, and we (normally) don't do it again. It is the same thing with other animals. The big mommy elephant will see it's little baby doing something bad, get all mad, and the baby will know what it was doing was wrong, bad. Hopefully the baby elephant will no do it again.
This is somewhat off topic, but the only thread I've only been able to place it into.
I don't personally feel we're that much above the animals living in the jungle, or sahara, or any other ecosystem. With all of our technologies, advanced communications, and highly developed brains, we've never been able to go beyond basic animal instinks. That to survive at all costs and procreate to further the species. Why else would a few men compete for the best female? The same basic reason a group of male crocs will go after one hotty femaly croc. Why else do certain human civilisations go to war? The same reason certain groups of baboons war with each other. They want the best land. The best places to live.
The only way I will ever believe humans are FAR superior to other life forms will be when we as a WHOLE race shed our basic animals instincts and live in PEACE. A utopia. Something that doesn't exist.
------------------
If you think you've done everything imaginable in life, you could always hug a crying child.
<IMG SRC="http://www.pianomahnn.com/wave.gif" border=0><IMG SRC="http://www.pianomahnn.com/wave.gif" border=0><IMG SRC="http://www.pianomahnn.com/wave.gif" border=0><IMG SRC="http://www.pianomahnn.com/wave.gif" border=0><IMG SRC="http://www.pianomahnn.com/wave.gif" border=0><IMG SRC="http://www.pianomahnn.com/wave.gif" border=0><IMG SRC="http://www.pianomahnn.com/wave.gif" border=0>
Skeet
06-26-2001, 05:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by theMAC:
If they did, why do they continue unchanged?
[/quote]
I really don't have time to read and reply to all of this, and I know al lof you know how badly I want to. So let me just say this...
How do we know they are unchanged? How do we know they haven't just changed to a point beyond our comprehension? How do we know they haven't gone through all the steps, just as we have?
Damnit, I want to read all this shit SO BAD! http://www.thehypertribe.net/ubb/smile.gif
------------------
Soon to come, something that means nothing...
Buddha's Penis!
06-26-2001, 06:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by Pianomahnn:
The only way I will ever believe humans are FAR superior to other life forms will be when we as a WHOLE race shed our basic animals instincts and live in PEACE. A utopia. Something that doesn't exist.
[/quote]
yes. until you rise above instinctual aggressive urges you are no "better" than an animal. can any victim of "road rage" claim to be the rational uberbeast, the not-animal?
as a species, the strength of man lies not only in our brains, but also in cooperation. strange that we deny both all the time in favour of the inferior animal tendencies.
------------------
you don't know anything until you know everything.
Some very, heartfelt replys. http://www.thehypertribe.net/ubb/smile.gif
But #1. Please reread the last part of my initial post. WE are trapped in bodys made of animal. The part of us that is HUMAN (as I call it) is NOT the same as animal. It requires a third party to control it and focus it. That's why so many people are no better than animals. And why the haven't reached a "higher state" Transcendence requires first that you master the physical form. The mental/spiritual aspect of it is unseen by the naked eye. Its reflected in lifestyle and demeanour.
#2 As for animals and evolution.
Evolution is a reaction to pressure.
It requires a nearly geologic timescale to be seen. (with a few exceptions, mostly in insects)
Chimpanzes are learning sign language because WE teach it to them. Not because they need it to survive. The need virgin forest to survive.
A popular misconception of evolution is that one animal evolves linearly and endlessly into more animals. The fact is that the animal that replaces the chimpanzee will not come from the chimpanzee unless they change their habitat through movement. They could move into a different region where the new pressure of an existing ecosystem allows them the vary and thrive. The ones isolated in the original area will die in that area if it changes. When their habitat changes, another animal will evolve to replace them from a different species that they do not currently subjugat.
#3 I made the point quite a while ago, that you try to understand other people based on what you know about yourself. Well, the same premise works for animals. You can't do that. You can't put your understanding into a creature that is not using the same reference point as you for all its discisions. The shadow of similarity exists in thing pertaining to the body. But the mind is different.
#4 The lion's vectors are learned. Tried and true. They got a leason or two from mom and then they had to do it right or die.
No improvement is made through examination. Only practice.
Finally. Find a good book on Norse mythology. Then read about Oden trading his eye for a drink from the fountain of knowledge.
A sad and wiser man.
That's what I mean when I say why aren't they changing.
Understanding forces change.
Ignorance is bliss, remember?
------------------
Don't shake the devil's hand and say you're only kidding.
<IMG SRC="http://www.tyler.net/roguewarrior/images/macsnake.jpg" border=0>
Pianomahnn
06-26-2001, 10:27 PM
If ignorance is bliss, than I must be orgasmic. http://www.thehypertribe.net/ubb/biggrin.gif
I saw someone with that as their quote in a newsgroup a few years ago. It makes me giggle.
------------------
If you think you've done everything imaginable in life, you could always hug a crying child.
<IMG SRC="http://www.pianomahnn.com/wave.gif" border=0><IMG SRC="http://www.pianomahnn.com/wave.gif" border=0><IMG SRC="http://www.pianomahnn.com/wave.gif" border=0><IMG SRC="http://www.pianomahnn.com/wave.gif" border=0><IMG SRC="http://www.pianomahnn.com/wave.gif" border=0><IMG SRC="http://www.pianomahnn.com/wave.gif" border=0><IMG SRC="http://www.pianomahnn.com/wave.gif" border=0>
vBulletin v3.5.3, Copyright ©2000-2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.