'...this small question of religion' [Archive]

Dog Breath

05-20-2001, 05:55 AM

Raised Baptist.
Baptized twice.

I am a Christian but am sort of an "independent". I can't stomach the hypocrisy inherent in a church setting so I am a philosophical Christian. I am my own religion. I let my conscious guide me and honesty is the thing I value above all else. I believe in the basic Christian principles but have taken a step back and had a good laugh at all of the convenient interpretation of scriptures and how certain some are that their spin is the absolute correct one. Religion is a personal thing and I don't see how anyone could work it out in a group. It seems insecure to me that someone would need a group to validate their personal beliefs.
I know I am not a model Christian but I can't function otherwise. I live without guilt because I don't do things I can't rationalize as being somehow the best choice.

------------------
Woof.
If it's so sick, why are you laughing?
<IMG SRC="http://sites.netscape.net/mydogbreath/dogbre2.gif" border=0>

Skeet

05-20-2001, 06:06 AM

TOUGH QUESTION. My opinions change, evety single day. Some days I am "Spiritual", some days "religious", some days i could give a fuck. I DO know that I do not believe in a sentient omnipotent being other than a "collective consciousness".

I can't really explain this. I might have to start posting my new beliefs, as they change every day or so.

------------------
Chicken!¿?

Inky

05-20-2001, 07:08 AM

I wasn't raised with religion at all, so as a young child I decided to check it out on my own, and I visited a few churches with friends.

It never felt right.

But there is one church I feel right in. The Glide Methodist Church in San Francisco. www.glide.org (http://www.glide.org)
go there and check out the site, read their story.
It's the one church I will gladly give to and go to, when I attend service there I truly feel "the spirit". It's a bright, warm, loving environment, which I think is what a church should be. They really are involved with the community. They do good work there. I am proud to be a member of that church.

Having said that I am not a methodist, nor do I really think I believe in GOD.

I gravitate towards Buddhist philosophy. But as a way of thinking that can apply to any person, any time. Just common sense really...it's not about God.

In spite of a lack of belief in God I do feel some sense of being connected to a greater conciousness. I think things happen for a reason, that people come into your life to teach you something, that goes for both good and bad experiences.

Really, I don't know, I am just along for the ride... http://www.thehypertribe.net/ubb/wink.gif

but that's my guess.

------------------
<IMG SRC="http://www.thehypertribe.net/irc/stats/Html/inky.gif" border=0> There are days I drop words of comfort on myself like falling leaves and remember that it is enough to be taken care of by myself.

Deadpool

05-20-2001, 10:04 AM

Former Buddhist. Only thing I believe in now is Chaos.

------------------
<IMG SRC="http://unix-shells.com/~robert26/Deadpool1.jpg" border=0>

Fuck you I wont do what you tell me. -RATM

3MTA3

05-20-2001, 10:19 AM

You know...I really hate to be such an asshole...no, seriously...I do...

But Christianity is so fucked...Id love to point out all the bullshit but I feel this isnt the thread(read: time and place)...please, for your own sake, do some reading...pick up some books and check out yer roots...youll see that the Christian bit is false as a mother fucker...

I could be called a Jew...not technically cause mom aint no Hebrew...but Im all up on some Kabbalistic shit(If I had to choose one this is it)...but really, I doubt the whole existance of some other plane and I think dependance upon this alternate reality is a sign of weakness...

Know that you will die...and thats the end...stop fucking hoping against hope and get with the program...

------------------
[insert lame quote/comment here]

VenoM

05-20-2001, 12:43 PM

ur not eatme, there's nothing wrong with that, i can agree with u on most parts

now, to answer her question, i'm open minded about both religion and evolution. I give both a fair chance. http://www.thehypertribe.net/ubb/biggrin.gif

------------------
<IMG SRC="http://www.v3n0m.com/venomsig.bmp" border=0>

[This message has been edited by VenoM (edited 05-20-2001).]

Lady Sianna

05-20-2001, 02:10 PM

i also believe in the collective consciousness, a divine evergy that flows through the universe to connect all things.

i, too, was raised christian...ran away furious & screaming upon entering college when my mind, heart & spirit were opened to a wealth of differing spiritual philosophies. felt like i had been sheltered, kept in a little christian box my entire life. so i began studying different religions on my own...buddhism, taoism (the eastern thought very much appealed to me), gnosticism, paganism, hinduism...so many ism's! http://www.thehypertribe.net/ubb/smile.gif

i believe that truth can be found in all religions & spiritual philosophies...but that paths are individual...we must discover what is right for us.

i feel at home as a pagan...i celebrate the earth, i unleash my spirit to the vast unknowns, i connect to the magick & the mystery of the universe...but am very much open to the ideas & beliefs of others, and welcome being challenged.

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>orig posted by 3MTA3:

but really, I doubt the whole existance of some other plane and I think dependance upon this alternate reality is a sign of weakness...

Know that you will die...and thats the end...stop fucking hoping against hope and get with the program...[/quote]

i definitely believe in alternate realities, other realms of existence...it is foolish & arrogant to think that we are the only ones existing in this vast universe. hope for something inifitely greater is not a sign of weakness, it is a sign of strength, of hope, of being open to the possibilities.

but that's what is so incredible about this life...in the deepest reaches of our spirit, we are free to believe as we choose! methinks that a glorious way to coexist. http://www.thehypertribe.net/ubb/biggrin.gif

------------------
surrender to the naked darkness...

Billyman

05-20-2001, 02:35 PM

Lady, i was brought up in a southern baptist home. my parents are very religions, here's the kicker.

when i was little(like all children)had a lot of questions. but most of questions where a little different, a little more in depth. i received a lot like"im not sure" "i don't know" or my favorite "you just have to have faith" aka, i don't know.

as i became older i started doing research on different religions, religious groups, and different beliefs all together. it was all very interesting i can asure you.

along the time i was in high school i would go sit in different churches of different denominations and listen. every thing to freewill, catholic, Pentecostal, etc., even sat in a black church ceremony(it was cool.)

through all my research and education on the matter i am happy to say that i have no religion at all. i do not believe any god or gods nor good nor evil(biblical sense), i do not believe there is a higher power of any kind or any where.

but please take note that i see nothing wrong with religion or spiritual beliefs. these things get a lot of people through the day and on to the next one. if it makes you comfortable, makes you feels secure, hey have it, theres nothing wrong with it.

the only problem i have is these groups that want to shove their beliefs down your throat. there on tv getting rich from your(faith in god.) they come to your door preaching handing out flyers. these are the people that get on my nerves.

Lady, i could type on this subject all day so i am forcing myself to stop now, i hope i have not offended you, but you asked so i told.

LATER.

Mudflap

05-20-2001, 02:49 PM

I don't subscribe to any religion. I've accepted that there are things about the universe and our existance that I'm just not capable of comprehending. As far as an after-life, maybe there is one, maybe there isn't. I'll find out when I die. That's enough for me. In the mean time, I try to live a relatively moral and productive life.

BILLYMAN: Check your PM's you rat-bastard.

------------------
Even the losers...
Get lucky sometimes.

disturbed

05-20-2001, 06:51 PM

Some of my beliefs are still mixed up and im not quite sure if i will ever get them figured out. I was raised in a pentecostal church. My grandfather was a pentecostal preacher. They were not TOO scrict (couldn't cut hair, wear pants sort of thing) they let all of those things by but others they did not. So i was basicly forced to go to church and try to stay awake during the whole thing. In the mean time i have seen people speak in tongues, slain in the spirit and old people that came in with wheelchairs get up and run around the church faster that i could. I moved back in with my father and we went to a non-denominational church. Then i myself started going to a baptist church. I have had my life profisied about, i have been slain in the spirit. I have felt the pain of other people and broken down because it was too much to bear. Basically after all of that happend it scared me shitless and i ran away. I have not been to church since. I believe that there is a higher being, but i dont believe that you have to go to church your every waking moment, i dont believe that you have to have a preacher between you and god because our "feeble" little minds couldnt comprehend what he wants us to. I believe everyone should have a one on one relationship with their higher being. Everyones relationship will be different, and it is no one elses business what your relationship is. You should try to help guide people in the right driection. There are so many things running through my head right now, i dont know how to sort them out so i will just stop right here.

------------------
I think the mistake a lot of us make is thinking the state-appointed psychiatrist is our "friend."
<IMG SRC="http://www.disturbedmonkey.net/sig.jpg" border=0>

King Bastard

05-20-2001, 07:10 PM

I'm what you could call a lazy pagan. I've been in a few circles, read a few of the 'staple' books, and all that. But of late I've been quite lazy about doing these things. Oh well, this is a thread, not a confessional.
And that's a big part of the reason that I choose to be a pagan. This percieved need to feel repentant for being who I am made no sense to me. All the scare tactics of other religions are much in the same way the methods that governments have made use of to keep the masses in line. Normally I'm pretty scrective about letting people know what I believe in, because there's a certain amount of bullshit to be had from the very masses I see livng under thumbs.
And I use dot knock Christianity for all the faults I find in it. But no more. It serves no purpose for me, and none for those who I'd seek to 'enlighten'. Let's just say that to each their own. what works for me may not work for you, but it works, and that's all I need to gain from religion.

------------------
Borne of sin, C',mon in... Andre Linoge; Storm of the Century

Buddha's Penis!

05-20-2001, 07:30 PM

i'm a godless christian and a rational buddhist. i don't have any sense of faith and i don't know what spirituality feels like, which is fine with me.

------------------
you don't know anything until you know everything.

Faceplant

05-20-2001, 07:34 PM

my thoughts on religon....

religon, most any religon is a great business. its what its turned into. seperation of church and state is no longer valid in our day...

i myself believe in to specific religon, more like a cluster of all religons.

there are many gods. yes, jesus is one of them, jesus does walk among the world, some where....i dont know where, yet.

these many gods do not control one thing, yet they all work together and control the world. they dont have powers to punish us here on earth, or make things happen, miracles done exist, meerely a figmint of our imagination.

see, we, the people create the miracles. if we want them to happen, they do, if not, they dont. this is how religon started, with faith, yet faith is no longer here. people just think, 'aye...god will save it, even though i dont have faith there is a god, he will still fix it.' thats the problem, faith is no more, thats why the church has turned into a business.

Koliedrus

05-20-2001, 07:47 PM

A wise man once told me that this subject should not be discussed unless you have a beer or three in your system.

I'll get back to you http://www.thehypertribe.net/ubb/wink.gif

------------------
Oyster-brain in a cookie jar.

Sinister Her

05-20-2001, 08:55 PM

I've serious gas now from the 3 beers I just downed. Thanks, Kol. My reply is simple, really. I don't do Sky Fairies or anything of the sort. I think that the Bible's a sort of Fairy Tale. Though I do believe in a 'higher power', I believe that power lies within ourSELVES. I believe it consists of lessons learned and places we've been. Wisdom, in short.

Thanks to Budweiser™, I've made little sense at all. Carry on.

------------------
Yeah .. so!

Koliedrus

05-20-2001, 09:26 PM

I realize that it's difficult to shift your mind to a time when technology could be viewed as magic but indulge me.

Once, we worshipped the Moon. Later, we brought some of it home and it wasn't made of cheese.

We know as much about "what is" as a neanderthal knows about microprocessors.

That's not to say that the potential doesn't exist. If it didn't you wouldn't be reading this.

We, as a species, are just beginning to gain the first glimpses of how reality might be put together. Alternate dimensions were once a thing of fiction. Today, as I write this, they are not only plausible, they are necessary. Without them, our Theory Of Everything makes absolutely no sense.

For the first time in human history, science is working alongside theology. Neither of the efforts to date can provide the answers we seek daily. At least we're trying. There's hope.

A supreme being may be something we contrived to explain the unexplainable but centuries of effort have built a story that most of us can understand; childish as we are in our evolution.

When there is no longer science or religion, we will only believe in TRUTH.

Thank you, theMAC. Your advice seems to work http://www.thehypertribe.net/ubb/wink.gif

------------------
Oyster-brain in a cookie jar.

Asmodeus

05-21-2001, 12:03 AM

Well, I was raised in a semi-Methodist home. But, my parents never were much for religion. My mom took me to church every sunday and all that hooplah...until I started to ask the preacher man questions about faith and why people place so much upon it. I was immediately expelled from the church- goodbye to bad rubbish as far as I was concerned. I spent many of my formative years studying most of the religions of the world- most aspects of Christianity(Babtists and Mormons are so fun to make fun of), Judaism, Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, Islam, most of the pagan religions as well. Though, to tell the truth, at this point in my life I am leaning more toward worshipping Kali. There is just something about a multi-armed woman with big breasts that fucks you then kills you. Of course, that may just be a subliminal message to myself from a wet dream I had last night. (shrugs shoulders)

Karl Marx said it well, "Religion is the opiate of the people." Of course, I think my version is better, "Religion is the opiate of fools."

------------------
"Peace is merely a state of undeclared war." Plato

Minimaul

05-21-2001, 12:13 AM

I don't belive in any form of religion. I don't even belive in myself. I'm working on that though. Beliving in myself is the most important thing to me. So I'll work on it.

------------------
<IMG SRC="http://www.filletshow.f2s.com/uploads/3.gif" border=0>

Koliedrus

05-21-2001, 03:50 AM

Alaska doesn't exist since I've never been there.

Problem solved. You're a figment of my imagination.

------------------
Oyster-brain in a cookie jar.

Billyman

05-21-2001, 03:55 AM

deep in point Kol, very deep.

live and question, or question the living.

Koliedrus

05-21-2001, 04:49 AM

Don't look for this in this thread. I'm stealing it here.

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by slappy:
tonight after work, i had a conversation with one of the guys that works in the kitchen. we started talking about our new boss, who had come in for a meal with another guy. i know this much about the boss: he has just split up with his bf (2 or 3 weeks ago)and at one point, they were engaged to each other. he must be feeling pretty shitty at this point in time.
so anyway, this guy that james (the boss) is having dinner with... i don't know whether he's a friend, or current bf, or ex bf. it's not my place to ask about these things, i've only known james for a few days, and it really doesn't matter. to me it doesn't anyway...
so the kitchen guy (we'll call him "bob" cos i don't know his name) says straight up, "it's disgusting, how can anyone do that?? it's not human, it's not natural."
i know he's talking about the whole homosexuality thing. i ask him what's the matter? surely everyone has the right to their own opinion/belief etc etc...
bob: but my religion says it's bad, it's not natural for people to do that kind of thing
me: what religion do you follow?
bob: i'm muslim
me: but i think it is a natural thing. and anyway, how is it bad? i don't quite understand what's wrong about 2 men sleeping together. (or any variation thereof)
bob: but my religion says..... (this is good this is bad etc etc etc)
me: but why do you believe what a book tells you?
bob: because god wrote it and it is true
me: but the fact that james is gay, well that doesn't really affect you does it? you have your beliefs, and if you stick to your beliefs, then surely that's all fine... james isn't harming you by being gay is he?
bob: but it's not right.
me: to you it's not right, but to others it is. why do you feel the need to tell me that you disapprove of the way that james is?

then he told me about my god, and that his god was true, but "my" god was corrupt, and there are many religions that are corrupt, and god made things to be a certain way, to which i replied, if he made things a certain way, then why did he make all the "bad" people?? at this point, i would also like to say that i don't have a religion. i don't believe, or disbelieve in a god as such... all i believe is that people are entitled to their own opinions and beliefs, and ways of behaving and thinking. what i don't agree with is anything that hurts other people, such as paedophilia, rape, acts of violence, neglect, etc.

bob said that people need laws to be laid out for them to follow, and anything that goes against these laws is wrong..

i say, that i personally try and respect other peoples opinions and i lay the laws for myself. i don't want to follow anyone elses laws. i will make my own. and knowing that i have a good heart and mind, i think i can do a pretty good job.

[/quote]

------------------
Oyster-brain in a cookie jar.

Mr. Snrub

05-21-2001, 05:28 AM

"With our thoughts we make the world"

------------------

This day, like any other day, is like no other.

rage

05-21-2001, 05:44 AM

heh..well..being raised by missionary parent's, I was pretty much force fed teh bible and christianity for 18 years of my life. Then I started thinking for myself. For me, I just see to many subtle, and not so subtle contradictions in the bible. I believe there is a god, but I dont know the truth yet. That is what I strive to know. What is REAL, what is true. I'm searching, but so far, nothing has been proven right, in fact, most have been proven wrong. I dont believe in evolution on the scale of darwin. Even he said he was wrong before he died. Plus, looking at nature, I find it very hard to believe that all of this is random.

I wanna run away
Never say goodbye
I wanna know the truth
Instead of wondering why
I wanna know the answers
No more lies
I wanna shut the door
And open up my mind
(Runaway - Linkin Park)

For now, I will continue my search, as futile as it may seem.

------------------
<IMG SRC="http://www.tyler.net/llundberg/sig.jpg" border=0>
" Three - legged Jeans.
Not as dumb as acid wash"

Mr. Snrub

05-21-2001, 05:52 AM

The universe is governed by a set of rules. We do not understand why they came into being, but past this point everything, due to the existence of these rules, occurs for a reason. Only through reason can truth be found. Understanding and enlightenment is the cause we should devote ourselves to. No real reason, i just think we should.

Also, all frenchmen must die.

------------------

This day, like any other day, is like no other.

Poteen

05-21-2001, 06:03 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Snrub:

Also, all frenchmen must die.

[/quote]

Add Australians to the list and I agree http://www.thehypertribe.net/ubb/biggrin.gif

------------------
I'm Danish! Eat me!

Deadpool

05-21-2001, 08:22 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by Poteen:
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Snrub:

Also, all frenchmen must die.

[/quote]

Add Australians to the list and I agree http://www.thehypertribe.net/ubb/biggrin.gif

[/quote]

Uuuummm noo, Aussies own. /me hold Funkay closely. Back away poteen, back away.

------------------
<IMG SRC="http://unix-shells.com/~robert26/Deadpool1.jpg" border=0>

Fuck you I wont do what you tell me. -RATM

Poteen

05-21-2001, 11:36 AM

hehehe http://www.thehypertribe.net/ubb/biggrin.gif

------------------
I'm Danish! Eat me!

Dog Breath

05-21-2001, 02:21 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by Poteen:
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Snrub:

Also, all frenchmen must dye.

[/quote]

Add Australians to the list and I agree http://www.thehypertribe.net/ubb/biggrin.gif
[/quote]

Which color? Or should I say colour?

I am French but not by choice. I don't like being French but I don't think there is a nationality I would like other than American. I guess I can dump my heritage since it makes up less than half of my body and none of my mind and just be a frigging American. I wonder if I could have my last name changed to Liberty, yes that would be the best name to carry.

I hear the french have culture. I guess that's why the women smell like beer.

------------------
Woof.
If it's so sick, why are you laughing?
<IMG SRC="http://sites.netscape.net/mydogbreath/dogbre2.gif" border=0>

MAC

05-21-2001, 05:47 PM

*theMAC approaches the computer with his ten foot pole and begins trying to hit escape.*

------------------
Don't shake the devil's hand and say you're only kidding.

<IMG SRC="http://www.tyler.net/roguewarrior/images/macsnake.jpg" border=0>

Minimaul

05-21-2001, 06:09 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by Koliedrus:
Alaska doesn't exist since I've never been there.

Problem solved. You're a figment of my imagination.

[/quote]

Actually as of right now , I am not in Alaska. So I am real . Now I shall kick you in the nuts. http://www.thehypertribe.net/ubb/biggrin.gif

------------------
<IMG SRC="http://www.filletshow.f2s.com/uploads/3.gif" border=0>

squee

05-21-2001, 07:31 PM

Um. I guess this is going to make me unpopular. Sucks to be me...but...

FUCK ALL YOU RELATIVIST MOTHERFUCKERS!!!

To whit:

"I make up my own religion as I go along."
"I like gnosticism."
"What I do is Right for me and nobody else."
"I'm Baptist."

Your foundations are made of sand, but I don't know what else to expect in a largely Protestant, Catholic-hating country. Your attitudes are leading to the majority of the degradation that our country is undergoing--your ideas are the reason why our constitution can be "interpreted" to take away people's rights. If something is right, then it's right. If you can't justify paedophilia under one circumstance, then it's not right under any.

Oh, and for those of you who left your religion because nobody could answer your questions: Why didn't it occur to you to seek out your own answers? What have you done in the meantime to try to solve these problems you percieve? I think you are afraid because your religion asks much of you and you are too much of a pussy to step up to the plate. But, that's just my opinion.

The only people whose opinions I respect on this matter are eatme and inky. I think eatme is dead wrong but at least he takes a stand and doesn't go in for this touchy-feely bullshit.

Buddha's Penis!

05-21-2001, 07:46 PM

respect who and what you want, but i am neither touchy nor feely. my beliefs or lack of them are based entirely on reason. this is up for debate, of course, i can't necessarily claim to be more rational in my views than another.
instead of fighting the urge to say something snide about the bible, i'll be upfront: there is no rational basis for organized christianity, which is why i disregard it as an option.

------------------
you don't know anything until you know everything.

Dog Breath

05-21-2001, 08:00 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by squee:
Um. I guess this is going to make me unpopular. Sucks to be me...but...

FUCK ALL YOU RELATIVIST MOTHERFUCKERS!!!
[/quote]

FUCK ALL YOU LEGALISTIC MOTHERFUCKERS!!!

One is just as bas as another. But go ahead and be a sheep, if that works for you then it still works.

Do you really think God is keeping score? What is in your heart is all that matters.

In my book any pusswad whom says their way is the only way is automatically wrong.

The ref tosses a flag, Technical foul. You are out of the game. We have some lovely departing gifts for you. Don't let the thread hit you in the ass on the way out.

------------------
Woof.
If it's so sick, why are you laughing?
<IMG SRC="http://sites.netscape.net/mydogbreath/dogbre2.gif" border=0>

squee

05-21-2001, 08:15 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Do you really think God is keeping score? What is in your heart is all that matters.
[/B][/quote]

Dog Breath,
First of all, you need to get your facts straight. It is the gnostic interpretations of Christianity--Baptists, Mormons, etc.--who believe that God is keeping score. Catholics believe that everyone is basically good, but just a bit tarnished. Life is a party and everyone's invited--which is why abortion and state executions are so incomprehensible to us.

Second, I firmly believe that what is right is Right, and what is wrong is Evil. The descent into evil is a slippery slope and it is always paved with the best of intentions. Talking about fashion or eating preferences is one thing--but when you say "Well, genital mutilation is not ok in our culture but it's ok in theirs," then you open the door for similar abuses at home.

I was raised on relativism and I find it difficult to contemplate mounting a crusade against abuses I see in my culture and others. But I am strong enough already not to accept them.

Penis
I look forward to your elaboration.

Buddha's Penis!

05-21-2001, 08:58 PM

okay, i'll elaborate. i'm a sucker for debate, i guess.

two main points:
1) while there is no direct proof with which to oppose the bible or christianity, there is a good deal of circumstantial evidence and a clear motive. the bible has been reinterpreted by powers that sought to control the populace, kings and the church alike. whether they corrupted the book is not provable at this time, but the motive was definitely there.
this seed of doubt in the authenticity of the book, coupled with a complete lack of divine presence in our modern world, makes it irrational to accept the literal facts of the bible. i don't say that it has to be wrong, but i can say that nobody has ever put forth a rational argument as to why i should believe in a christian biblical god. "faith" is not reason.

2) say the bible is an irrefutable source: even then, it's unreliable as the word of god, due strictly to the subjective interpretational aspect. there is no way to separate your thoughts on the bible from a personal standpoint, because there are so many passages which are always claimed to be a matter of interpretation. if one is a matter of interpretation, why isn't another?
in my version of the bible, somewhere in corinthians i believe, it condemns "abusers of themselves with mankind". this is the passage that is often interpreted to be against homosexual relations. i have seen this passage quoted in different, clearer words. this interpretation has been forced on the people who use that version of the bible that may never have assumed that meaning from the original words, which indicates that an identical case can be made for almost any lesson contained therein.
in fact, i have heard from self-titled biblical scholars that hell wasn't a biblical idea, but was added later by faulty interpretation and translation.
so, the fact remains that you can't trust any version of the bible or the personal slants of other christians; all you can do is read the book yourself and base your opinions on that, and even that isn't quite accurate due to mistranslation and less-accurate versions such as the newer, dumbed-down bibles. this is not organized religion, but it is the only way to try to clear your vision of true christianity.

a lesser point (because i'm not an expert. this is just what i have gathered):
many parts of the old testament have been disregarded as applying to the nomadic jewish culture of the time. this is true, there is a section of detailed instructions on how to cut your beard, and i don't see the holy connotations here, but to disregard one part as not applicable weakens the case of the entire old testament.
it seems to me that the old testament was intended as a set of rules that were to be cast aside when god put his son on the earth to teach a new set of rules. the old eye-for-an-eye rationale was replaced by turn-the-other-cheek, which makes sense because the two can't co-exist. if the coming of christ was a signal of the changing of god's will, of his conversion from vengeful to loving as is specifically stated, then the old testament and anything contained in it was "spoken" by the angry god of the jews and is now void.
the new testament can be basically boiled down to "don't be a prick". thus spake Him who loves.
elaboration indeed. i could always be wrong on the biblical details, of course.

------------------
you don't know anything until you know everything.

squee

05-21-2001, 09:11 PM

Buddha:

There's a lot of anti-Protestant prejudice leaking through in your argument, which makes me wonder if you were raised by or around any Baptists.

In the Catholic mass (and Jewish Synagogue services) you have the Liturgy of the Word, which is basically a reading from the Book and a little lecture. Then you have the Liturgy of the Eucharist (communion, Catholics) or something similar, ie, the celebration of the Passover Feast in Judeaism.

Catholics do not believe that the old contract was destroyed when Jesus died for everyone's sins--The Jews are still God's chosen people. Chosen for what? What kind of exclusive club is this? Nobody knows. When you study Trinitarian faith you get a weird sense of God "moving in mysterious ways," as if from time to time in history you can barely percieve a larger plan at work, like ripples on top of a pond, and you wonder what's moving beneath the surface.

Anyway what I was going to say was that Catholics (like me) believe more in the symbolism and meaning of the Liturgy of the Eucharist than of the Word. It is basically the same sacrifice Abraham was going to make out of his son Isaac--it reminds us that unless we go out in the world and make great sacrifices to change things for the better, then what use are we?

Baptists, on the other hand, like to thump the Bible and get pissed off at heathen African herdsmen who speak in clicks and whistles.

Perhaps the reason I can argue in favor of Catholicism is that I'm not trying to "save" everyone I meet. We believe that Jesus died for everyone, so Catholics are basically pretty mellow. For instance...generally we are assimilated into cultures we go into. We blend in, we don't try to convert the entire culture.

Mudflap

05-21-2001, 09:26 PM

*Mudflap dons the famed story telling hat and wonders why it smells funny*

When I was a child, myself, my big sister, and mother and father all lived together and were your average American family. We attended the local Baptist church every Sunday. I was Baptized there. They even gave me a box of preprinted envelopes for which I could use to donate my part to the weekly offering. For the most part, I liked going to church and I liked what I was being taught.

When I was 10 years old, my parents separated. After 3 or 4 years they finalized their divorce. Immediately after my parents separated, they stopped attending church. I didn't know why. I took it upon myself to keep attending and I arranged to ride with one of my neighborhood friends who also attended the same church. I attended church with his family for a few Sundays. One day, my mom told me I couldn't attend church anymore. I asked why, but she basically rationalized with "I'm the mom and I said no". The separation of my parents was anything but amicable and times were tough in my family. I didn't fight my mom on the issue because she was upset and stressed out almost all of the time and I wasn't about to add to it knowingly.

A few years later, I learned that my family was no longer welcome at that church because of my parents failed marriage. I also learned that my friend's parents (the one with whom I was catching a ride to church)had spoken with my mom and asked her to keep me home because of the awkward situation they were put in by bringing me along to church.

Here's what I figured out on my own: That church wasn't a religious institution. It was a social institution. I never believed that God turned his back on me and my family because of my parent's divorce. The church community did turn their backs on us, however. That's Christianity?

Here's what else I observed. Religion has been and is still the cause of countless wars. Religion has been and is still a tool used to control and oppress the masses. On TV, there are corrupt Evangelists begging for money in the name of the Lord and Savior. They live in mansions and drive expensive luxury cars. So much evil has been and is still being done in service to God.

I decided that I wanted no part of any organized religion. I sincerely doubt that I will be damned to hell because I lived life as a good person but didn't subscribe to any popular religious tenants. If that is my fate, I accept it and I curse the Almighty for creating and enforcing such fucked up rules to such a fucked up game.

*Mudflap removes the story telling hat and makes a mental note to have it professionally cleaned before returning it to THT.*

Squee: These are the foundations for my individual stance on religion. They are not sand, but stone. I have given you the courtesy of respecting your right to make up your own mind concerning religion without any nay-saying or insults from me because I disagree with your beliefs. I EXPECT the same courtesy from you and everyone else. 

------------------
Even the losers...
Get lucky sometimes.

Buddha's Penis!

05-21-2001, 09:33 PM

i don't know anything about the beliefs of individual sects of christianty, so i can't really be anti-protestant. i'm not anti-anything. i was raised in a very christian community (used to hold the record for most churches per capita) but not in a christian household, so i have a lot of experience with the religion in general but none in a specific sense.

while your point about the catholic faith not involving the literal word of the bible that much is well taken, my argument was against organized religion as a whole when based on any scripture and so catholicism is not exempt.
and on the matter of the old contract with god, how can you turn the other cheek while exacting old-testament justice? how can god be a vengeful deity AND love, and how can the same god turn a person to a pillar of salt for a simple and inconsequential transgression but cast away the sins of my past if i repent them? a new contract WAS made, unless you can fit those drastically differing values into one.

i'll have to take this space to say that if any offense is taken from my tone to please disregard. i don't mean any in any circumstances, but i have learned from past similar experience that my writing style is often taken badly.

------------------
you don't know anything until you know everything.

Dog Breath

05-21-2001, 10:22 PM

No Buddha you are the Zen master of calm and rational posts I don't think anyone sees your ideas as antagonistic.

I am impressed with this discussion as a whole and there is a great deal to be learned here.

I like Mudflap have seen the hypocrisy of many organized religions. I can't speak for Catholics as I have only attended one mass. I went to several baptist churches and a baptist private school and hated it. I attended other churches before and since.

I have seen too many things I don't like about the holier than thou and country club mentality in churches so when I go to one I spend my time doubting and second guessing the sincerely of others and end up doing more damage to myself than good.

Logic dictates my perception of the bible. Since an infant is not capable of sin then a madman can't be accountable for actions he truly doesn't understand. Intent is important and your level of understanding.

For example alcohol.... A child whom is given wine in a bottle and gets drunk is not sinning. Old testament persons whom drank wine in moderation weren't sinning. Baptists claim any alcohol is a sin. If a Baptist knows drinking is a sin and drinks he will feel guilty He will be untrue to himself and therefore be sinful. I am an alcoholic. Drinking for me is bad for my body and spirit. I consider it a sin for myself to take a drink. I understand it is wrong therefore it is. I don't know what stand you take on drinking but it will be different from these cases.

In short if you know something to be wrong it is. My position is not immoral if anything it is a higher standard. I look to the bible and make up my own mind what it means. I also look to logic to sort out right from wrong such as shooting with a good backstop. Being careless in any form is wrong and therefore a sin.

No my views are not traditional but I know them to be true within myself and I am not relying on other's flawed judgement to dictate right and wrong.

Many people have been led down a primrose path by misguided people. Only those whom look beyond what they are told can see the true path.

------------------
Woof.
If it's so sick, why are you laughing?
<IMG SRC="http://sites.netscape.net/mydogbreath/dogbre2.gif" border=0>

[This message has been edited by Dog Breath (edited 05-21-2001).]

Kayla

05-21-2001, 10:32 PM

i was baptized presbyterian...I dont practice much of anything right now.

------------------
<IMG SRC="http://www.e-a1.f2s.com/kayla.jpg" border=0>
So you run and you run to catch up with the sun but it's sinking
Racing around to come up behind you again.
The sun is the same in a relative way but you're older,
Shorter of breath and one day closer to death.

Mr. Snrub

05-22-2001, 12:59 AM

I can;t help but feel the world was a better place when Christians were fed to the lions.

------------------

This day, like any other day, is like no other.

Dog Breath

05-22-2001, 03:30 AM

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahhahahahah!!!!!

That'f fucking funn.....

Hey UH Duh-oP!

------------------
Woof.
If it's so sick, why are you laughing?
<IMG SRC="http://sites.netscape.net/mydogbreath/dogbre2.gif" border=0>

squee

05-22-2001, 01:40 PM

I can only comment on what I know of Catholic faith. Surely you can see that no Catholic will understand that stance on religion--"I don't like any kind of religion because my church was a bunch of assholes." Baptists and Catholics are about as far apart as you can get and still be Christian--they basically think everyone is a piece of shit while we believe that your congregation will always be your family--they might not like you very much but they will always put up with you.

Mudflap: Your entire argument seemed to be based on the inconsistencies in the Bible, so of course I'm going to see obvious problems with it when my faith doesn't think the Bible is incredibly important.

Anyway, according to Catholic faith you're not going to Hell unless you know Jesus (ie, feel him in your heart) and then deliberately turn away from him. So, unlike Baptists, we don't think that people who have never heard of Christ are damned. All of you are probably going to heaven if you lead a good life.

Mudflap

05-22-2001, 09:02 PM

I never mentioned the Bible.

------------------
Even the losers...
Get lucky sometimes.

squee

05-24-2001, 06:30 PM

Yep, you're right...I meant Buddha's Penis, not Mudflap. Although...economics is the new state religion and it causes more conflict than anything right now. Are you saying we should give up economics as well on that basis? :P

Moving along...

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>In short if you know something to be wrong it is. My position is not immoral if anything it is a higher standard. I look to the bible and make up my own mind what it means. I also look to logic to sort out right from wrong such as shooting with a good backstop. Being careless in any form is wrong and therefore a sin.[/quote]

This is Memorial Day weekend so all the military in Pensacola get a four-day weekend. As luck (good or bad) would have it, it's also the weekend of a gigantic gay pride festival in Pensacola. I don't know why they're doing it here, other than to provoke the military, because Pensacola really is a shithole.

Anyway I was discussing gays with a couple of priests today and the outcome of the conversation is this: The church has nothing against homosexuals, but it has a real big problem with homosexuality. In other words, there is no reason not to have a lot of love for someone just because of one thing they do; you need to be able to separate a person from their ideas or their actions.
The other thing we discussed was that you are in trouble only if you "know" Jesus and turn away from him (ie, pull a Judas). If a man is gay and he's never had an epiphany like "Whoa, this is wrong, but I can't help myself and I'm going to do it anyway!" then he's still not going to go to Hell. What matters most is your own heart--like Dog Breath says, if you know something is wrong and you do it anyway, then you're wrong--but if you don't know, then why punish you?

Ask a Baptist what happens to an African herdsman who has never heard of Jesus when he dies...he'll tell you the poor heathen is going to Hell instantly.

[This message has been edited by squee (edited 05-24-2001).]

Buddha's Penis!

05-24-2001, 07:23 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by squee:


In other words, there is no reason not to have a lot of love for someone just because of one thing they do; you need to be able to separate a person from their ideas or their actions.

The other thing we discussed was that you are in trouble only if you "know" Jesus and turn away from him (ie, pull a Judas). If a man is gay and he's never had an epiphany like "Whoa, this is wrong, but I can't help myself and I'm going to do it anyway!" then he's still not going to go to Hell. What matters most is your own heart--like Dog Breath says, if you know something is wrong and you do it anyway, then you're wrong--but if you don't know, then why punish you?

[/quote]

that's an impressive bit of stuff to hear from a christian. this has always been my view as well, and i'm pretty sure it's the general christian standard (in theory), but not many people seem to practice it.

------------------
you don't know anything until you know everything.

[This message has been edited by Buddha's Penis! (edited 05-24-2001).]